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[Folly]

I've been continuing to follow Pantheon, Crowfall, and AoC.

Crowfall is doing new updates every few days, showing development moving along at a breakneck pace. It's really amazing that they accomplish so much so quickly, and gives me a lot of hope for the future of this game.
A recent update showed off some nice artwork of their Dark Elf race, and another showed the Fae race double-jumping and gliding around.

Pantheon is only doing monthly updates, but each month gives an in-depth look at the game's systems and the progress of the world's creation. Things are coming along slowly, but steadily.
This month's update shows off their rat-man race. After playing a lot of Vermintide lately, it was quite interesting to read about an alternative take on ratman culture.

Ashes of Creation is also doing monthly updates. They are generally less substantive compared to Pantheon, and don't do much to get me excited. Still, there are a few interesting tidbits of lore and art here and there.

[Ghills]

GW2 is the only MMO that's kept my interest for long.

The quality of life features are things I really miss in other games, although it sounds like ESO is starting to copy them.  I haven't found another MMO that handles movement and action combat so well.

The story is shallow but mostly entertaining, the combat is fun and more complex than it appears at first, the visuals are stunning, the music and voices are good, there's always something to do but I don't need to no-life it to stay on top of gear and the meta.

If you run through all the content and don't feel like grinding, it's perfectly reasonable to drop out for a while and just log in to get the story updates while they're free. If you want to grind you can.  There's just no need to, unlike other games where they keep raising the level cap and gear tiers.

It's a nice flexible game to drop in and play for a few months to see if you like it.  There's a free unlimited trial where you can play but don't have access to map chat or the trading post, but you do have all in-game features from the core game and can play the whole thing.  The expansions are $50 when bought together - the one that gives mounts in $30 alone and IDK what the one that gives gliding and legendary crafting is, it was $50 by itself when it first came out.  There's no sub, and the cash shop is very good about being cosmetics only.

[Folly]

For any lore buffs out there, Pantheon's dev blog this month featured a fresh take on Werewolf origins that is worth a read imo.

[Rex_Nex]

Bit of a necro, but that's fine!

I'm personally of the opinion that the best MMORPGs havent changed in way too long. The absolute best is probably Runescape, which is both really impressive for an 18 year old game and really sad for the genre. If you can afford it, I hear WoW is still enjoyable, and GW2 is supposedly solid but I disliked it. The only recent release that I think is worthwhile is ESO, which is really nice as long as you look at it like an MMO instead of an elder scrolls game.

Maplestory 2's global server also released a few days ago, and it's not too bad. It's a Nexon game though, which means you've got at best a year to enjoy it before they squeeze it dry. Sadly there's not a whole lot to enjoy, it's got about a hundredth of the content of the established MMOs; mid-lategame is a couple dozen 20 minute dungeons and the earlygame is a unbearably boring and drawn out storyline. It's free though, so there's no harm in trying it.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Runescape, WOW, EVE... basically the same MMOs that've been around forever. No one is really willing to innovate (which to be fair, is in part due to technical limitations), and until then there's no dislodging the top dogs. Y'know, I don't require MMOs have to Mount & Blade style combat or TES levels of mechanical depth but the the whole action bar/hot key ability toolkit setup is pretty fucking boing.

You can cut how "skill based" it is any way you want: it's lame as fuck to actually PLAY.

I rarely argue that genres get stale, but for once, I just want something DIFFERENT. MMOs just can't compete with other games in a mechanical or atmospheric way. I mean there have been attempts to "Massively Multiplayer"-ify several genres, like squad shooters or racing games, but someone really needs to take the core roleplaying, living world, teamwork elements and just redefine the actual gameplay experience--It's just so boring to do stuff in MMOs. Also, scale is consistently a problem--if you can't render thousands-strong armies--change up that goddamn setting.

[Folly]

I don't think action bars are inherently a problem. Rather, the problem is when dev's just give players a button to mash until the opponent dies, and then expect them to repeat indefinitely while paying a monthly fee for the experience. They need to give those hotbar skills conditional uses, and the ability to interact with other skills, and varied resources; turn each battle into a dynamic and tactical exchange, which players will lose if they don't put some effort in every single time.

Of the MMO's currently on my radar, Pantheon is the only one that seems to recognize and address this issue.

[Caz]

There's Legend of Aria which seems to be UO for a new generation. I think it's going on Steam soon now that Alpha 2 has ended.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I don't think action bars are inherently a problem.

Rather, the problem is when dev's just give players a button to mash until the opponent dies...

Action bars are literally just a series of buttons to press until an opponent dies.

Even ones with "conditional" uses are are just buttons to press until an opponent dies--sounds like even less fun QTEs. The problem is LITERALLY the organization of complex attacks and maneuvers into a single button press... it'd be like if all you had to do in FIFA was hold down the A button to successfully dribble by people. It's too abstracted--you're pretty much good to go if you're facing the opponent and can press buttons quickly. Sure, at the absolute HIGHEST levels of endgame content, raids and such require slightly more strategy--but in the end there is always pretty much only a single way to beat them (as detailed in various boss guides around the web). What really kills the action bar mechanics is a lack of ability to be spontaneous and improvise. Also any system in which the person (assuming an equally tactically matched opponent) who presses buttons faster wins is inherently flawed--like that isn't fun either.

Honestly, I cannot understand why people cling to these mechanics? They're so not NOT intuitive--seriously, ANYTHING ELSE would be better.

[Yoink]

For any lore buffs out there, Pantheon's dev blog this month featured a fresh take on Werewolf origins that is worth a read imo.

Fukken furries.

I do like the Lord Deimos-lookalike I found in the screenshots section, though.


Did anyone ever play that Conan MMO, with the supposedly brutal, skill-based combat? I was sad to hear it flopped.

[Folly]

Action bars are literally just a series of buttons to press until an opponent dies.

It sounds like you have as little imagination as the same dev's who have made action bars look bad for generations. I'm trying to explain how action bars can be more, and you just don't get it.
Absolutely any video game can be oversimplified to nothing more than 'press buttons until the enemy dies', if you completely overlook all of the variables that have to be considered before determining exactly which buttons to press in what order and with what timing. Except for VR games I guess, which get oversimplified to 'wave your arms around until the enemy dies'.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Bruh. As I explained it's the SIMPLIFICATION OF COMPLEX ACTIONS that make action bars weak. You want... contextually relevant buttons? That just seems like more work for the same thing. At the end of the day that doesn't change anything--it's the fact that you aren't actually executing any of the stuff on screen that sucks. For example, in most games, if you have the wherewithal to sneak up behind an opponent you can assassinate that opponent--but you still have to A.) remain undetected, B.) actually sneak up behind that person. Or since there are (pretty weak) parallels to that in WOW, take just  attacking someone--normally. In most games you have to decide if you're going to block or swing your sword, maybe a light swing or a heavy swing, and there is also an element of maneuver--you can dodge attacks and move around to create advantages and disadvantages.

MMO action bars, even with... skills that combine, which has been attempted before to meh results (LOTRO, fellowship maneuvers--between members of groups), just take all the tactical elements out of combat. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW YOU CUT IT. You're just standing there, taking unavoidable damage, hoping that you've geared up/skilled up right so that you have enough health and damage output to take your opponent down before they do likewise.

Are all video games "just pressing buttons until your opponent dies", ya, I guess--but it's the difference between hitting balls from a pitching machine and playing an actual match of baseball. You can argue all you want about how pitching machines can be made interesting, but you're leaving out some overwhelming evidence that the game of baseball is made intrinsically fun by factors far beyond a players ability to hit a ball. It's the tactical and strategic considerations that are interesting.

[beorn080]

I have to disagree with you on skillbars. Back when I played WoW, which was before the first expansion so dont take this as gospel for the current situation, there was a wide variety of tactical considerations involved. PvE, not so much, excluding instances and set pieces. But in PvP, you could use your entire toolbox, at least as a warlock. I think the main difference is that there weren't skill points. Every warlock at 60 had access to the tenth rank Curse of Agony, and the 11th ranked Shadowbolt, and so on. There were talents, which changed the consideration of what certain things do, but for the most part you always had access to everything. Which made fights interesting. Do I run around with my succubus out, to use seduce in PVP to stun my target and risk her getting blasted fast and losing bonus damage plus the stun, or do I run felhunter to deal with just the magical threats and use Fear to make other players run away. Do I fire off Curse of weakness across the entire enemy party, or do I focus on one of their healers or dps. Talents might change the balance of which you lean towards, but it was still a tactical choice, and that was leaving out the whole Engineering thing.

I will say that I've yet to find an MMO that does a similar thing. Theres almost always a most effective choice that you pump everything into and simply spam, because of skill points or limited slots or what have you.

[xaritscin]

back in the days i enjoyed Lineage II (private servers). it had something going that made it enjoyable and a change of pace from the whole WoW boom.

nowadays i only play EVE and WoW (private server sadly, PC cannot handle the latest versions so im stuck in Cataclysm/Mists of Pandaria, perhaps Warlords of Draenor but there's no good server for it that i know about).

from personal experience i would recommend any of those 3. i played Aion once, didnt like it, there were others like Perfect World or ARGO but most of the time these asian MMOs were really just never grew on me. for some reason Lineage did, either for the lore or the gameplay mechanics (even when player movement and models were quite limited, but it surely wasnt the voluptuous Dark Elven females).

Mortal Online was a cool endeavor too. but i cant play it atm and never really got the grasp on how to be adept on it.

as for the current discusion in the comments. im more of a fan of action bars compared to active combat, it feels good in games like The Elder Scrolls where you're a single player and the NPCs dont do weired maneuvers to fuck you up. but in a multiplayer game, with people shooting and doing crazy combos it really feels complicated to land weapons or spells on targets.

yes pressing buttons feels unrewarding if you're not a fan or hability rotations and shit like that but this is more of an adaptation from the old turn based RPG combat mechanics (with dodges and accuracy being based on calculations rather than being a result of movements).

i wouldnt mind the Skyrim system of putting your spells/powers into a selectable menu when pressing a key so you can swap to different habilities during action combat as complement to regular hack and slash or shield blocking. but this only works in singleplayer format because the system actually pauses the game before that.

in a multilplayer scenario that means players have to quickly move around and relocate. even Mortal still uses action bars instead of a full action system like the described above.

i think that perhaps, in the future. we could handle this with a system similar to Minecraft/Terraria. with a special scrolling bar where you can swap weapons and spells in real time just by using the mousewheel (wouldnt surprise me if one of the current MMO titles already took on that concept tbh).

this frees the system to handle more action based stuff like using the left and right clicks for blocking and hitting. perhaps even dual wielding or dual casting (like in Skyrim).

one thing to take in account tho is that this would mean taking a look on how many habilities are churned into classes/professions (honestly i dont get why we still look at those things as separate instead of a single careers tree). to ensure players have enough habilities to tinker on different strats but not so much as to clutter the limited amount of slots of the single action bar.

for example. lets say that im trying to make a class similar to the Druid from WoW but less button intensive:

1. forms would be habilities in this case instead of special UI inclusions. this means i need at least 4 slots avaliable for the druid to change forms, in this case the forms are divided into "Defender" (armored herbivores, works similar to the bear form), "Ambusher"(predatory creatures that prowl or faceoff to deal damage directly like the cat form), "Photosynthetic" (nature based, plantlike, healer oriented forms like the old tree form) and "Faeric" (like the boomkin but you become something like a fae creature or stuff like that to deal nature damaging spells) forms. one thing to take in account is that this may mean a druid can change forms with just rolling the mousewheel so certain limitations may have to be put for pvp.
2. each form has at least 5 specific active habilities, the druid class on its own may also have 5 active habilities for theiru se in the scrollbar. this means a total of 14 slots in the scrollbar.
3. one upside of the druid in WoW is that changing form puts a different actionbar than the one you use in humanoid form so this could be extrapolated to the scrollbar system, with the habilities being replaced when you shapeshift. another additional could be that forms can be keybinded so you dont have to scroll them in the bar and free more slots for extra spells
4. the scrollbar would then be used for special hability selections while regular blocking, spell casting and attacks would be managed by the left and right clicks.

what do you think?

[Folly]

Bruh. As I explained it's the SIMPLIFICATION OF COMPLEX ACTIONS that make action bars weak. You want... contextually relevant buttons? That just seems like more work for the same thing. At the end of the day that doesn't change anything--it's the fact that you aren't actually executing any of the stuff on screen that sucks. For example, in most games, if you have the wherewithal to sneak up behind an opponent you can assassinate that opponent--but you still have to A.) remain undetected, B.) actually sneak up behind that person. Or since there are (pretty weak) parallels to that in WOW, take just  attacking someone--normally. In most games you have to decide if you're going to block or swing your sword, maybe a light swing or a heavy swing, and there is also an element of maneuver--you can dodge attacks and move around to create advantages and disadvantages.

MMO action bars, even with... skills that combine, which has been attempted before to meh results (LOTRO, fellowship maneuvers--between members of groups), just take all the tactical elements out of combat. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW YOU CUT IT. You're just standing there, taking unavoidable damage, hoping that you've geared up/skilled up right so that you have enough health and damage output to take your opponent down before they do likewise.

There is absolutely nothing stopping a dev from putting an assassinate ability on a hotbar which only functions when you are sneaking and undetected. And there is nothing stopping them from making a hotbar with a block ability that is only effective if you get hit after using it. And there's nothing stopping them from making a hotbar with a dodge ability that lets you quickly move out of harm's way. And there is no rule that says using a hotbar means you have to stand there taking unavoidable damage. None of the things that you are trying to link to hotbars are in any way linked to hotbars, nor are the things you're trying to seperate from hotbars actually separated from hotbars. I certainly agree, too many generic MMO's have failed to utilize this sort of creativity in their implementation of hotbars; but that is my whole point, that they can and should start doing so.

[Cyroth]

I'm with Folly on this one. The problem isn't hotbars, the problem is devs being lazy and/or boring.

Take Blade&Soul for a positive example. Hotbar based combat, but lots of skills are context sensitive and/or part of attack chains and (almost) everything enemies throw at you can be dodged or blocked. And you get more then a few skills to dodge or block with.
If you're doing it right you can actually solo content that would be hard for a party doing it the "classic" tank&spank way.

Sadly most MMORPG devs don't do it that way, they go for the most unimaginative and boring implementation of hotbars instead. Or they add abilities and systems that would make combat interesting in theory, but also make the game so piss-easy you never need to do any of it, so it might as well not exist.