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[Dunamisdeos]

I'm not sure about that reasoning. Aren't loot crates in those game just generally cosmetic items? That less of a force-into-the-cash-shop and more of a DLC roulette. It doesn't affect gameplay, so there's no pressure.

The concern here is the altering of gameplay to coerce a player into spending extra cash. Since this isn't a multiplayer-centric game, there's not much room for a cosmetic roulette. With that out of the way, the only things they could conceivably do to entice players into spending extra cash is to alter SP gameplay.

With that precedent set, we open the door to exploitation. We used the same reasoning on day-one DLC and unfinished products being released, and look at where we are now with that.

[Man of Paper]

Just another perspective here:

Generally speaking, if you've got enough money to spend on extra shit in video games, chances are you have a job. You're already deciding to play x hours when you buy the game if you want to see the story through and get distracted by side quests on occasion. You might not have the time to farm for legendary equipment, regardless of the difficulty of acquiring it, considering real life does tend to get in the way of gaming. Why shouldn't someone working hard be able to enjoy the sweet sick loot that the game can offer just because they're busy? It's not breaking the game as cheats tend to do (since cheats keep getting brought up for some reason), and it's not like you're being forced to pay for extra shit. Since it's single player, it's not like it becomes Pay to Win either. It's just Pay to Have Accelerated Loot. While I don't really approve of microtransactions in general, in this case especially it's not something to get as pissed off about as people seem to be getting.


EDIT: To throw a little perspective in here, I've had Witcher 3 since it came out, but didn't get into the detailed world because my life was busy. I'm unemployed now, so I can play it, and it's amazing, but it's not something I could have enjoyed only having small times to play here and there. And I definitely wouldn't have explored as much as I have now.

[Neonivek]

I've heard that argument that cheat DLC should be allowed under the umbrella of "Not enough time to play the game" but instead of arguing against that let us INSTEAD look at EXACTLY how Shadow of War treats people who just want to get to the fun of the game and not actually sweat the small stuff.

You have to buy loot crates, these crates have random equipment, you aren't likely to have anything usable first try, and thus you have to keep buying crates.

As opposed to... Just... I dunno... Cheating (But Loot Crates make Cheating "Illegal") or modding.
-1) You cannot mod the game or cheat in the game
-2) You cannot chose what equipment, what type, or how much equipment you get... no matter HOW many Loot Crates you have.
-3) You still have to grind to upgrade the equipment you PAY REAL MONEY for. So you cannot escape the grinding.
-4) You do not buy Loot Crates directly with cash... You buy gold with cash. Meaning not only do you overspend but it is used to convince you to spend more.

Man of Paper does this in ANYWAY help people who only want the highlight reel?

This is why I said I'd be less peeved if they just sold the equipment directly.

---

Frankly I am of the opinion that if you don't have time to play a game... you don't have time to play a game. Advancement through the game shouldn't be sold to the player.

Generally speaking, if you've got enough money to spend on extra shit in video games, chances are you have a job.

If you actually dig down into the seedy underbelly of these practices the answer is not only often NOPE! but people often end up spending well outside their means.

[Man of Paper]

I see 90% of the problem is the expectations we as PC gamers have grown over time. While modding and cheating is nice and fun, chances are it waters down the original product in a way that the people trying to tell you a story intended. In something like Total War, where it's more freeform and there's no actual story, that can be seen as an issue. What we have here is a game with a story that contains a beginning and an end, with a little variation in between (in regards to Captains, doing side quests vs not, etc.). Being able to cheat and mod is a privilege we've had and grab on to with an iron fist, much like voting in America. And just like voting, everyone gets in a fluff when it's even slightly interfered with.

Would you prefer they had microtransactions for upgrading as well? Or would you complain about how that's a ploy to take even more money if that were the case?

I don't see how converting different currencies across the world into one currency to be used in-game(ish) is a bad thing, and I fail to see how it convinces people to spend more. $10 is $10 to me, whether it's a single bill or 1000 pennies. If people spend outside their means, then it's a failure on their part. Companies cashing in on is shit, but you probably have a bank account, and banks are just legal ponzi schemes, so we all accept it on some level by now. It's a practice that'll always be around as long as one person's willing to have wool pulled over their eyes.

I do agree that it'd be better if they sold the equipment directly, and not once did I say this was a particularly good practice. But people are getting too fired up over something that, if they choose not to bite, is not going to affect them in any way.

----

And I'm going to take this last bit a little personally. If I have 8 hours to play through the main story of a game, but I can't put an extra 20 hours in to get The Badass Sword, who the hell are you to say I can't drop a few more dollars to try for the opportunity? You're pretty much saying that if I can't 100% complete a game, I should fuck right off.

Out of respect for this forum and it's moderators I have to stop myself. Watching you bitch about everything and argue with everyone is getting frustrating.

[Neonivek]

I don't think you even understood what I said Man of Paper. I made that post assuming what you said about time was 100% accurate.

You CAN'T buy the Badass Sword... and even if you could you still HAVE to put in 20 hours upgrading it.

This doesn't help your hypothetical imaginary person. Your supposition is flawed! It is based on a format of micro transactions this game is not using.

I don't see how converting different currencies across the world into one currency to be used in-game(ish) is a bad thing, and I fail to see how it convinces people to spend more

It is psychological and has been well documented (as in, it isn't a secret). This is why, say, Travel Miles are in points and not in dollars (well at least the one here is) and why some travel mile deals are rip offs (One famos one was a Harvey's deal... But when someone calculated its worth in dollars... You essentially get less than a percent of value)

Your mind isn't made to be capable of handling large numbers and thus when you see one large number you are geared to be more favorable to it. As well, you also lose track of what that value it. It isn't 20 bucks it is 10,000 Gold (Except they probably won't make it such a direct translation. Likely 10,000 gold is like 18.56)

If you would like a document on this phenomenon I'd be glad to present it.

Would you prefer they had microtransactions for upgrading as well? Or would you complain about how that's a ploy to take even more money if that were the case?

In your Hypothetical person's BEST interest. The equipment bought would upgrade either for free, for a sizable discount, or would upgrade automatically along side you.

This is, however, not the case.

---

Or rather these Microtransactions are not helpful to anyone except the company's pockets. Even to the "Person with a job, lots of money, who really loves long videogames but only wants the highlights"

---

Actually I find it kind of ironic with the whole "Loves long videogames, but doesn't like playing long videogames" in that the reason they are attracted to the game is because of the reputation it has earned in part for being a long videogame. They have plenty of games that cater to people who are tight on time and very few nowadays even care about people who want to play long videogames with more and more clocking in at about 8 hours.

I think it is more that they like the concepts in the longer games but not the execution. Tyranny is a 80 hour RPG played in about 8.

[Dunamisdeos]

The problem is not with buying the badass sword to save time, the problem is that it will inevitably result in making the badass sword in future games inaccessible because people paid money for it the first time.

And no, I'd prefer that a game openly advertise the amount of time it requires to complete/invest in it rather than just including a way to pay to the top. Why would you need to pay for these upgrades? To complete the game? In that case, it's pay to win. Is it for achievements or completionist reasons? In that case, you are not actually achieving or completing anything, you are just paying actual money for a checkmark in a box that means nothing. What did you just pay them 60$ for when you bought the game? The privilege of giving additional money to the publishers?

This is like if you bought an apple, but then you didn't have time to eat the apple, so you paid THE PEOPLE YOU BOUGHT THE APPLE FROM to eat the apple for you.

[Neonivek]

the problem is that it will inevitably result in making the badass sword in future games inaccessible because people paid money for it the first time.

Why Slippery Slope this? They tend to make changes the make the Badass Sword take forever pretty much immediately.

Actually I think Man of Paper said it best:

I'm going to take this last bit a little personally. If I have 8 hours to play through the main story of a game, but I can't put an extra 20 hours in to get The Badass Sword, who the hell are you to say I can't drop a few more dollars to try for the opportunity? You're pretty much saying that if I can't 100% complete a game, I should fuck right off

So the developers took something that might have taken say... an hour at best to obtain (if you include normal gameplay)... and now have made it 20 hours long.

And see how the community reacts to it. Even Man of Paper is outraged but directs it towards the gaming community for not liking these business practices.

Suddenly making needless hurdles becomes quite lucrative isn't it? Who is to blame? The people who don't like it.

This is like if you bought an apple, but then you didn't have time to eat the apple, so you paid THE PEOPLE YOU BOUGHT THE APPLE FROM to eat the apple for you

I am reminded of Suekeoden 2 where I was traveling around a bit in the game. By the end of the game I actually felt like time had passed, this could have been months or years later because the narrative pacing created by the gameplay itself.

I wonder how much is lost if you just skip all the elements of the narrative and just go straight to the gameplay. Like... If you play Witcher 3 for the first time with a New Game+ game with all the gear and levels unlocked.

How attractive are the sidequests when the rewards are meaningless? How much does the narration for the sidequest make sense given there is no bribe you would care for?

[Dunamisdeos]

I don't think of it so much as a slippery slope as much as the logical progression of sales tactics. The publishers' entire job is to ensure that money is made, and the most money possible at that (which really, is fine as a concept). This means exploring new ways of turning a profit, and this means testing out new methods in the market.

This is what they are doing now, and the only way to avoid this becoming a standard is to not give them money for it. New ideas for moneymaking catch on nigh-instantaneously in this industry. Things like early access became a standard in less than a year because we kept shelling out for it, and now I don't think I've met a single person who hasn't been exploited by this multiple times.

It's not a logical fallacy if there is direct logical precedent, is essentially what I'm getting at.

[Neonivek]

True I forgot...

Slippery Slope isn't when a situation naturally leads to another.

Slippery Slope is when the situation that is only tangentially related is presented as IF it would lead naturally to another.

Like how Gay Marriage will lead to Bestiality Marriages. (Real argument I heard from a real teacher I had)

[Dunamisdeos]

True I forgot...

Slippery Slope isn't when a situation naturally leads to another.

Slippery Slope is when the situation that is only tangentially related is presented as IF it would lead naturally to another.

Like how Gay Marriage will lead to Bestiality Marriages.

Obviously the next step would be DLC Early-Access Gay Bestiality Marriages held in Middle-Earth.

Anyway TLDR: I don't trust publishers because they profit directly from screwing us over, and they know it, and there is exactly no penalty for them doing so if we keep feeding them cash. Look at Molyneux, for crying out loud. He should be in goddamned jail.

[Neonivek]

It is kind of funny that people present gamers as Entitled for being outraged.

When this is the ONLY tool a Gamer has. We don't have a monolithic government agency that oversees videogames... We have VERY few agencies that even protect gamer rights.

Most of the time we can ONLY complain... and these are things that would never REMOTELY be acceptable anywhere else.

You think Hollywood could get away with microtransactions in DVDs? I can get a Super Market shut down quickly if they sell overripe apples.

People just want Gamers to take it on the chin I guess and be quiet.

---

Or rather... Because Gamers HAVE NO ADVOCATES! Or at least insufficient advocates.

The Gaming Community Self-Advocates.

How many advocates are there for just food?

[ZeroGravitas]

Just another perspective here:

Generally speaking, if you've got enough money to spend on extra shit in video games, chances are you have a job. You're already deciding to play x hours when you buy the game if you want to see the story through and get distracted by side quests on occasion. You might not have the time to farm for legendary equipment, regardless of the difficulty of acquiring it, considering real life does tend to get in the way of gaming. Why shouldn't someone working hard be able to enjoy the sweet sick loot that the game can offer just because they're busy? It's not breaking the game as cheats tend to do (since cheats keep getting brought up for some reason), and it's not like you're being forced to pay for extra shit. Since it's single player, it's not like it becomes Pay to Win either. It's just Pay to Have Accelerated Loot. While I don't really approve of microtransactions in general, in this case especially it's not something to get as pissed off about as people seem to be getting.

Obviously it's not about the normal people who can live functional lives. It's about the kids stealing parents' credit cards and the compulsives who can't control themselves.

[nenjin]

It's honestly more about Online Invasions. You can invade stand alone (as in doesn't affect their game) fortresses that other players have fortified and placed their orks in, trying to win a bronze, silver or gold rating. You get loot crates for getting better times on beating the fortress.

So really, it's about e-sports. The chance to sell people some stuff to fuel some quasi-online competition. WB thinks people will be playing SoW for years and they want a revenue stream attached to it.

[nenjin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR7PnWtUp6A

Just dropping this here. Though I know it doesn't change the principle of the matter, it's the lead dev saying the game is absolutely balanced for the offline, non-cash shop experience. Can't be proven in practice but at least he's on the record as saying it.

[Dunamisdeos]

.......Ok.

While I have AN INTENSE BURNING HATRED (insert "if-I-had-one" meme)  for the very idea, if the game launches and it turns out he is telling the truth, I'll go for it.

EA and Ubisoft are still on my no-buy list, as they are run by the empty sheathes of humans who can only feel emotion when they are actively ruining something good in the world.

WB has a good track record with me so far.