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[Lenglon]

okay, I'm awake, I've slept on it, and I got the votecount I needed to confirm. I'm posting by phone for this, so links are a pain, but I want this out there before day end.

Hapah is scum.

Reason:
1) instinct. this however is invalid for anyone other than me, and should not move anyone to lynch. its not a real argument. I think I was set off by something in the relation of web and Hapahs posts, frankly I havent done the re-thread-read necessary to hunt it down yet, and dont have the tools/time to do so now.

2) passivity / ambivalance: similar to 4mask, all posts have been defensive or teaching points, excepting the recent push at doll.

3) I do not like the case against doll given, and hes supposedly confident enough in it to use it to clear 4mask off of it. The case is that doll is overconfident in his case, and that doll is planning too far ahead. doll is a demonstrated chessmaster in playstyle, all doll has done is be transparent about what hes lining up. in other people, other situations, it would be scumtell to set up future lynched like this, but not in this one, with this level of transparancy.

4) and this is the big one:

Hapah, why the HELL are you voting someone with a slight town lean by your own reads, who is asking for replacement, when you are pushing a case on doll enough to by relation be clearing todays prime lynch target?

Heres what I think is why:
both 4mask and doll are town.

For whatever reason, I've rolled scum more often than town. I've been on scumteams with 4mask before. He isn't passive at it. He takes moderate risks, he sets up for some chaos, he does things. He does them as town too.

What happened this game is classic BM. People just lose their energy and interest in these things. Theres a reason why when I agreed to replace in the banter thread I said I didnt really want to, but was willing to do it because it was needed. 4mask wasnt actually showing scumtells or towntells by lurking. he was showing bm boredom.

doll's case is perfectly valid. In other circumstances I'd go along with it. but BM boredom is a real thing that happens, and I give a free pass on inactivity accusations to people who replace out, for obvious reasons.

This brings us to my first question of Hapah, and his response. what does he think of our inactive players both before replacement requests and now. and he said he doesnt see his views on them changing as a result of it.

so by his perspective, 4mask's idleness should be a scumtell. Hapah's reads and philosophy are inconsistant. THAT is a scumtell.

next of course we come to Hapah's accusations of doll in response to doll's case. doll demonstrated how big of a threat he was, and Hapah proceeded to make his first real pushes against someone. even Hapah himself called his posts accusing doll as the best posts he'd made all game. He finally breaks from his activelurk pattern to put forward a case against todays lynch leader. but with no vote acompanying it, mild phrasing, little pressure.

Scum know who is town and who isn't. if two town go off against each other, they know it. they can use it.

Hapah's plan is to let doll's mislynch of 4mask go through today, and to then reaction-lynch doll for the mislynch tomorrow. and hes setting the ground today to do it, and trying to keep it subtle and mild to keep doll from defending against or stopping it.

Hapah feels to me like scum, and I want him lynched.

(oh, and roo, I'm a she)

[Lenglon]

Oh, and by the way, one of those future lynches doll claimed to be setting up, that Hapah railed against, was Hapah's own.

[hector13]

Super early morning post commence.

Bearing in mind that those future lynches doll was supposedly setting up were against half the players in the game. Not necessarily the best point to make, especially when all those future lynches were essentially based on inactivity.

It seems we've made four cases against players this day, and they've all been the bloody same. What makes what Hapah's done more notable than Johiah/TBF/4mask?

Unvote, for the moment, though the prospect of a 4mask/Lenglon scumteam does rear its head.

[Lenglon]

TBF was a very different case, dismissing that part of your question out of hand as irrelevant. If you need me to re-summarize it I can but it seems off-topic and like it would just muddy the waters to bring it up.

4mask's case is a inactivity lynch against a replacing player. It's reasonable and fact-based, but we can do better, because its based on boredtells rather than scumtells IMO.

I frankly never really understood the case against johiah as an actual case, I viewed it as pressuring a new player to step up their daygame, and them failing to do so so the pressure was left on. I admit to not looking super-closely at it however, so if theres some real substance to it please correct me on this.

Hapah's is different because he's here, he's not new, and hes demonstrated hypocricy, voted for a player while calling them towny, and see point 4 of my case above. the only overlap Hapah has with the others is point 2, which I don't go into detail on because it isn't as important as point 4, mostly just framing point 4 because of the lack of anything else having been done.

[FallacyofUrist]

[1] FoU: Why do you think roo hasn't pinged you for buddying, but he did ping me?

[2]-They can help you get a sense of where players you are unfamiliar with stand or an idea on how they approach the game.
[3]-Doll(which I guess is now you?) for mannerisms and a mindset that is very unusual to me.

[1]: Ask roo.
Alternatively, give me the quote in which roo pinged you for buddying so I can respond.

[2]: Sure.

[3]: You consider unusual mannerisms and mindsets scummy? *writes on nonexistent notes* Alright, why aren't you voting roo?

Also, have a pressure vote, Hapah. I'll figure out why my predecessor voted 4maskwolf later. For now? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first active thing you did this game was counter doll's psuedo-attack on you. Scum tend to have a more passive play style.

You'll probably switch your vote to me after doing this and justify it in some manner, when in reality it's self defense, coincidentally tying the vote between me and origamiscienceguy. Noted for later.

[FallacyofUrist]

[1]At any point was this post cut down and made shorter? [2] Did you have other questions or commentary? [3] Methinks you were writing up a different sort of post. Or am I wrong and I'm coocoo for cocoa puffs? [4] Also what a terrible thing you just did. Why are trying to get us into rvs again after all the effort I put into getting us out? [5] Do you have nothing to discuss? Nothing at all in the current thread interests you or piques your curiousity? You have over 10 pages worth of content and this is the first impression you choose? [6] You have fallen very greatly in my list of town reads.

First of all, a complement. Your play's gotten a lot better.

Now then.
[1]: Probably not.
[2]: At the time, no. Now, though...
[3]: Clearly coocoo for cocoa puffs.

[4]: Oh, that was more for myself. Also helped justify my vote on Hapah a little bit. I'm not trying to move the game back into RVS, I'm just sprinkling it with a little RVS sauce to make it taste better.
Pouring.

[5]: Refer to my previous post attacking Hapah.

[6]: Hm. Does that mean you think I'm scummy? I would think there would be a difference between ineffective town and passive scum.

[Hapah]

PFW

Leng: Thanks for numbering your points

1.) Fair enough, especially with the disclaimer
2.) What is a defensive post? I get asked questions; I'm not gonna just ignore them.
3.) It's being cleared by extension. If I think doll is scum, and doll is/was trying (and succeeding, from the looks of it) to get 4mask lynched, how else should I read 4mask? There's no way it's a bus this early.
4.) Today's prime lynch target per you. I have my own opinion and my own vote, I'm not gonna follow the person leading the train when I think they're scum.

As for johiah, if you don't lynch him today, when will you? Do you want to carry him all the way to the end? He may as well have not posted the entire game, and I'm not gonna count on the scum giving us a small mercy and nightkilling him if he's town.

so by his perspective, 4mask's idleness should be a scumtell.

By your perspective maybe, by doll's certainly, but not by mine. See #3 above.

next of course we come to Hapah's accusations of doll in response to doll's case.

It was not due to doll's case, it was due to his responses to my questions.

Oh, and by the way, one of those future lynches doll claimed to be setting up, that Hapah railed against, was Hapah's own.

Do you really think I'm that scared of a lynch in a day that hasn't even around yet?

FoU: It was fairly early in, but I'm PFW and can't dig it up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first active thing you did this game was counter doll's psuedo-attack on you. Scum tend to have a more passive play style.

I don't think doll has attacked me at all. Doll is thinking too far ahead and has the scum numbers on the brain (we have two, lynch one, role cop one kill one) when answering a question that bars that possibility.

You'll probably switch your vote to me after doing this and justify it in some manner, when in reality it's self defense, coincidentally tying the vote between me and origamiscienceguy.

There's no way I could secure a lynch on doll, and I hate 11th hour vote craziness. Though with all the votes moving around I don't know where it stands.

Votecount, please.

[Tiruin]

Let's see.

Hapah(2): Lenglon, FallacyOfUrist
FallacyOfUrist(2): johiah, origamiscienceguy
johiah(2): Hapah, Gentlefish
Gentlefish:
Doubloon-Seven hector13:
TheBiggerFish:
roo:
4maskwolf origamiscienceguy(2): TheBiggerFish, roo
webadict Lenglon:

Not voting: hector13


The day ends Thursday, May 11 at 2pm forum time.

...In 4 hours.


origamiscienceguy is replacing in for 4maskwolf. johiah is still up for replacement.

For some reason, there seems to be an aroma in the air of cookies. Or was that baked dough? It smelled faintly sweet.

Also if it isn't apparent, that's a #2 many way tie.

[Lenglon]

Disclaimer - I will be around at day end, and if necessary to tiebreak I do consider a 4mask lynch perfectly acceptable.

Hapah - is johiah towny in your opinion or not? Pressure voting someone who isn't here and has asked for a replacement is pointless. So clearly its a lynch vote. against someone you think is towny. And you expect me to buy this WHY?

[Lenglon]

Hapah, do you mind restating your case on doll as well? Is it nothing more than his case against 4mask being weak? and how does him asking a scum-perspective rvs question and putting too little thought into it (getting the math wrong) make him scummy?

[Lenglon]

Okay, am at a computer now instead of my phone, so I can actually link things, quote things, have multiple tabs open, use lurkertracker effectively, etc.
so much better.
now then, lets see about getting some quotes. cases are always better with quotes.

Hapah, do you mind telling me what your read was of our four replacing players before they replaced, and what your read is of them now?

This question is a little interesting; why would the read change just because the person behind the keyboard did? It might change what I expect going forward but it changes nothing in the now. As for all the folks there were/are up for replacement (are these the folks you were talking about?):

wuba (now you): preoccupied, mostly. He's a little harsher than I remember but I think that's more on my memory than anything else.
doll(now FoU): A scum read based on the post I had above. Possible that it was addressed in the big wall-o-text they posted, I started to fall asleep in my chair so just let it go last night.
johiah: Either new or uninterested player, little bit of a town lean.
4mask: A little bit of a town read if only because I've got a bit of a scum read on doll (who is leading that lynch train), and that'd be one hell of a bus on D1.

All I've time for at the moment.

This post seems extremely scummy to me, because Hapah was, and still is, voting to lynch johiah. underlined sections are my emphasis.
Hapah, you have a scum read of doll because you don't like his case on 4mask, and a town read of 4mask because he is the target of doll.
the case on 4mask is that he is active-lurking, and has extensive data to back it up.
your case on your current lynch target is:

...
As for johiah, if you don't lynch him today, when will you? Do you want to carry him all the way to the end? He may as well have not posted the entire game, and I'm not gonna count on the scum giving us a small mercy and nightkilling him if he's town.
...

so what is different between johiah and 4mask? why is attempting to lead a lynch on 4mask scummy but you yourself are attempting to lead a lynch on johiah for the same reasons?
do you disagree with the argument that 4mask was active-lurking? could you show quotes of him not active-lurking?
I'll see about grabbing quotes to explain what I mean about passiveness from you Hapah, gimmie a bit and I'll change this triple-post into a quadra-post. Just putting things out there as I get them since we're low on time here and people need a chance to read.

[origamiscienceguy]

Alright, reading through the game, and since there are only four hours left, I think I'll just put my general thoughts down when a certain post sticks out to me.

4maskwolf

I tend to lean toward the information gathering side of the game. I would use my day kill on anyone who I did not deem town as it would essentially be a coin flip and kills narrow down the suspect pool. If you were asking if I would use it immediately. I would say yes and use it on hapah for his contrived entrance instead of tbf for his robust entrance.

 I am gonna pick up the question you asked webadict.

Vote! Do it! Don't be afraid. Voting creates discussion. Just say what you're thinking and lay it out there; more discussion helps town and less discussion hurts town. Even if you don't think you have enough for a vote lay out what you do have. It can only benefit town. Claiming don't do it. Except in lylo. Claiming only helps scum. It gives them more information than they already have and distracts town. And don't be afraid to die. We're town so if one of us wins we all win.

oh, roo. I see your English has gotten much better, and I am glad to see that you are putting explanations for your actions instead of expecting us all to read your mind. Now, answering for someone else is generally seen as slightly scummy (either because you look like you are deflecting attention from your possible scumbuddy, or because you are attempting to artificially increase your "participation") but it's RVS so I won't look too much into it.

So my first question is, why don't we simply deconstruct everyone's nuclear weapons while the investigation happens?
Does anyone else see the flaws in our current plan?

Also, for the questions:
TBF, I am a new guy. reading Archcrystal drew me to the forums and DF in general. Also, I may just be the new guy, but you do seem rather antagonistic.
4maskwolf, I have barely any experience, just some games of mafia played irl with groups of friends around campfires. Oh, and I read one of the mafias in the hall of fame.

In a beginners mafia, flavor text means nothing. Most likely, the GM just made up some bullshit and put it in last second. Since you are new to forum mafia, I'll cut you some slack, but I'll point out any mistakes you make and explain why you shouldn't do them in the future.

Reading on, and roo and TBF seem to be having a spat... Not helping anyone. Although, it would be incredibly awesome if both of you were scum together. Although, I find that highly unlikely.

TBF: We just started and you're kind of harshing the mellow with all of this antagonizing of Roo. And now this 'nah' business with Hapah? This is Mafia, please explain your actions and clear up what you meant with your question. Then I will consider removing my vote.

Roo: "just how it felt" doesn't cut it in mafia. We need your evidence. We're not going to do the legwork for you when you say "look for the evidence". Give us your evidence and link to the posts so we know the context of the evidence. Consider this your warning.

Hapah: What do you think of this situation between TBF and roo?

Webadict: Right now? I'd cop TBF. It's RVS and they're being super aggressive against one other player. To be fair, at this point that other player is making me wonder as well, but they came off the handle at the start of the game with an antagonistic line of questioning.

Attacking both the attacky players. Interesting choice, you then vote for roo. While I can totally agree with thatif this is your first time playing with him, the truth is that he always acts like that, so far this game, he's been much better than usual, so I am going to have to disagree with your vote, even though i agree with how you came to it.

TBF, though, has played with roo before, and knows that he has been better so far, he even explicitely said it. Yet the relentless attacking of the same-old same-old roo does put me on suspicion. If the game had only progressed up to this point, I would most definately vote TBF, but we'll see how the rest of the game progresses.

yaddayadda more RVS bullshit...

doubloon seven getting introduced to our meta...

random roo vote on webaddict, I assume to get a reaction from someone. I really don't understand why he does it. I have no idea why you do it. It makes you absolutely useless to town, so voting you has very few consequences. I know you do that all the time, but it makes everybody want you dead and gone. Giving you no time to see whatever master plan you have set come to fruition.

Holy wall of text roo... That's exactly what we want from you, explenations for your actions. I am trying to understand what your master plan is. I can see you purposefully doing... whatever it is you are doing... as mafia to get people to vote whoever reacts the most (in this case, TBF) but then again, you always do this sort of thing. I don't agree with your vote on wuba, but i like the explenation.

more answering questions... more spatting...

I like Hepah's responces, few as they are.

Webaddict starts acting like roo...I assume he's trying to get a responce...

Im starting to wonder if TBF dickish moves scared off the newbies.

Oh Hey! Hector's back

And now we get into more RVS...

About Johnah, He seems to be overwhelmed by this game so far, and roo vs TBF dawn of bickering probably hasn't helped. I don't think either three of them made any particular scumtells, roo is just being his normal self, TBF got agitated and frustrated, and put it on everybody else, and Johnah couldn't handle it. At this point, I think that either Hapah, or Gentlefish would be my vote, since both of them have been sort of active-lrking by not producing much discussable content. I have an uneasy feeling about Webaddict, since I don't know how to read him. Doll seems genuine town, Johia, TBF, and roo are unknown and Hector seems pretty good to me.

Continuing on...

I completely understand doll's attack on 4maskwolf, but TBF with the most conspicuous bandwagon I've ever seen...


FAAAKKKK I'm out of time.



Skimming through the rest of the game. Sorry I can't do more detailed reads.  FOU replacement...



I have to vote TBF for his hostility towards everyone (not helping anybody) and his blatant bandwagoning following doll (not even bothering to come up with his own material) and for someone with such a big post count, it doesn't seem that he actually puts any thought into most of his posts. Either he's scum, or he's a useless townie.



There. I left ou guys 15 minutes to read this, and correct any mistakes I made while skimming this game.

[Lenglon]

15 mins? wait what? I thought it was 1 hour and 15 (1 hour and 10 now) until day end.

[Lenglon]

OSG

[Lenglon]

Now then, lets begin a full post analysis of Hapah shall we? (LurkerTracker is a beautiful thing)
Hapah has a total of 28 posts thus far.
Of those, the following are completely contentless, being just a "I'll get back to this later" post.

Spoiler: 8 posts in total (click to show/hide)

Off of work and writing up a good old-fashioned wall of text now, sit tight.

Such a busy weekend! I'll catch up tomorrow after work.

5 pages over the weekend; you guys are killing me! Catching up now.

Yeah, if you're not having fun then ask for a replacement. Games are meant to be enjoyed, after all!

I've had a rather large change IRL today and don't know that I'll get a post out this evening, though I bet I can manage one in the morning.

Catching up now.

bluh bluh
Quote

    The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:
    The message exceeds the maximum allowed length (40000 characters).

Split into three posts instead I guess.

Yup, not reading that tonight, lol. Will take a stab at it tomorrow.

Wouldn't like another week, personally. If things stay as they are night will fall on Wednesday and day won't break until Thursday at the earliest (and with it two more extensions should we need it). There are plenty more days to go.

I'm piecing together a post in another tab as a I find the time, I'll get it out sometime this evening (next 4 hours or so).

No post this working; big work-related development. Will catch up this evening. Welcome new folks!

Leng: I can't tell you why you feel what ya feel, but go ahead and finish your read, I thought my last couple of posts were more interesting than the early stuff.

There is nothing scummy about this, I'm just saying they can be dismissed when looking for activity.
20 posts remain.
next, there's ones that brief, non-signifigant posts. only tangentally related to the game or having no significant content to add like a one-word extention request.

Spoiler: 7 posts (click to show/hide)

PFW

TDS: I think you've gotta bump the day end back a bit, looks like you counted weekend time.

BigFish: It's been a long time, I honestly have a hard time remembering last time I was scum (there was LNCP's Mein Kampf game but it was a little unusual, to put it mildly). Other folks with longer memories might be able to give you some leads on that, I'll dig through my post history after work and see if I can find something interesting.

Disclaimer: I've had a few drinks.

TBF: What question are you looking for me to answer? This one?

....
roo: Are you going to continue being incomprehensible?

Hapah: I've seen you around but never been in a game of Mafia with you.  What are some examples of your town and scum play?

TBF: Man, it's literally been 3 or 4 years since I played. There's no way I'm gonna remember individual games at this point unless they were nuts, and even then I'm only gonna remember snippets.

I remember tunneling the everloving shit out of Shake in a King of the Mafia. I remember reasoning out that Tolyk (I think it was Tolyk) was scum in one game (a BYOR I think) when he changed his claim just a bit. I remember dinging Book with a fakeclaim in my first very game, and I remember lynching myself in a Beginner's Mafia game long ago (don't do that). I remember being a Snowman in a Cybrid Mafia game, and I vaguely remember some Mafia game that was about CCGs? I think people have Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic The Gathering and all that good stuff. But if you're asking me for specific details of how I played in games long past, I can't really help you.

I don't know what that word means.

I'd just post a fixed version of it, honestly, though it's not too bad to read as-is.

PFW

Doll, I can vote for an extend if there's a particular answer you're after, but it looks like activity has tapered off (which isn't that unusual around end of D1 if memory serves). I also hate it when folks extend the game but don't make use of the extension. Is there something particular you're looking for?

Extend

Again, nothing scummy to see here, just filtering out the driftwood.
13 posts remain.
after this, lets filter out stuff that is either pure RVS or pure theorycraft, not followed up on or used elsewhere:

Spoiler: 5 posts (click to show/hide)

PFW

roo: I gather that you've played before from BigFish and Tir, and I gather that it didn't go well or you dropped out or something. What happened in those games? What did you learn, and what can you do to make this go-around better?

PFW

What the heck.

That's not even where I was going with that question.

Then clear up where you were going.

PFW

Yes, I would have gone and reviewed the games, but no, I don't feel like trawling through four years of posts to do it.

Funny, me neither. Why would I? I started to because I said I'd try but gave up after 10 mins with little to show for it.

I'm not antagonizing folk for the sake of it, but I will admit I wasn't exactly going anywhere with that, except maybe trying to point out to the TBF bandwagon that it's not just me, and I'm not exactly the worst case.

Then say things plain. As it stands, it looks like you're just throwing snark and insults around without much rhyme or reason behind it.

-snip- I'm not exactly the worst case.  Though, really, that's johiah, not me.

Kinda like this. Mostly just looks like you're being a smartass.

lol, that's a fancy word for such a simple question! No, I don't think we're working together to "nefarious results". I know I'm town and don't know about wuba, but I'd take any similarities in the way people talk in stride unless they were REALLY blatant.

Quiet evening, hmm?

I've already gone into a lot of detail on a variety of things.
What do you want me to do?

I like the why's behind the questions, mostly. Your main or starter batch of RVS questions looked to be icebreakers/playstyle inquiries/light rolefishing, but I'd like to imagine there's something a bit deeper behind at least a couple of them if you're very interested in the responses, yeah? If these are things you can or are willing to share, that'd be nice.



Meta: It's been a while, but what's the policy on lynching folk that are up for replacement? I'd love to just get a replacement, but is leaving a zombie going into the second day a good idea? What's the precedent for this sort of thing?

once more, nothing to see here, it's not scummy stuff, just doesn't really matter all that much.
8 posts remain.
-snip for character limit-