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[roo]

@web I don't really care about tbf. What I care as I have said is about your play towards tbf. And I am saying it doesn't make sense from a town mindset. You still haven't admitted that it is a policy lynch. I'm assuming you're still holding ground on it being an rvs vote? That doesn't make sense to me either.

You keep attempting to reframe the issues that I bring up. And keep throwing tbf in my face with a perpetual nuh uh this this tbf is trash. I already heard all that. I already heard tbf needs death. I'm saying so what? kill him. I'm trying to find scum. I'm not interested in tbf.

[webadict]

@web I don't really care about tbf. What I care as I have said is about your play towards tbf. And I am saying it doesn't make sense from a town mindset. You still haven't admitted that it is a policy lynch. I'm assuming you're still holding ground on it being an rvs vote? That doesn't make sense to me either.

You keep attempting to reframe the issues that I bring up. And keep throwing tbf in my face with a perpetual nuh uh this this tbf is trash. I already heard all that. I already heard tbf needs death. I'm saying so what? kill him. I'm trying to find scum. I'm not interested in tbf.

That's because you're not thinking. You see things through your little tunnel. You have tunnelvision.

Also, because you're absolutely stupid, here's some quotes. Bolded for the blind, which I can't be sure you're not, since you clearly have enough brain cells to type replies.

@roo: That goes counter to your initial vote for me then. You never once suggested this was for any other reason than because of TBF. You originally stated that my policyvoting TBF was precisely what you found suspicious.

I use the literal words of policyvoting. I am amazed at your ineptitude.

I don't believe to be the only lynch option. I believe him to be the BEST lynch option. Like, the only better option is scum.

Because he is anti-town. Because of past games, essentially makes this a policy lynch.

Of course I'm gonna double down on TBF. I have played several games with him. I don't even believe he's scum. He probably isn't. But the problem is that even as town, he actively hurts the chances to win, which means that I want him to shape up or ship out.

You wanna know why? Because he's literally useless, and this being the first Day makes him a really fucking good lynch. I want you to do a little comparison: Who would you rather have alive at LYLO: Me or TBF? This isn't that hard of a question, because the right answer is me. And you wanna know what the answer to that is when I say "Who would I rather have alive at LYLO: X or TBF", I pick X every time.

BECAUSE IT'S A GOOD POLICY.

I want him to learn or die.

Overall, this is RVS where I shot R in the end and moved the gun to Org, I mean TBF's head. He has a choice to make, and you can move your gun to my head, but I refuse to move mine until he decides this isn't Candyland.

It's not even a random vote. It's literally explicitly stated that this is NOT random. Because it's not random.

That's not even a warm-up.

@web I don't really care about tbf.

If you don't care, then aren't you being pretentious with this quote

If you were webadict how you decide when TBF  has "shaped up" and is no longer the best lynch option? "Shaping up" had no parameters nor examples of what "shaping up" means. Effectively "shaping up" can only mean lay down and die for me in this instance.

You can't NOT care and still determine that my reasoning is flawed based off of that. Because as far as I can see, my vote reasoning still stands, and since you don't care, you can't really back your point up.

And I am saying it doesn't make sense from a town mindset.

No, it doesn't make sense from YOUR mindset, because you put blinders on and can't see anything past those little red borders that are framing my handsome, penguin-esque face, cutie. But, that's probably because you're sweet, li'l mind is too delicate for this, mm'kay?

You keep attempting to reframe the issues that I bring up.

Seems like they're perfectly well framed to me:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What the heck.

That's not even where I was going with that question.

@Hapah:  ':\
Nah.

...

I would like to explain my question, but at this point, I don't think it would be a good idea to do so, considering Hapah's being kind of weirdly interested in what I hope to get out of my question.  Call it paranoia, but this is Mafia after all.

I have had multiple bad experiences with roo.  It's mostly that I suspect he will keep being a bad player.

And yet, multiple people have had multiple bad experiences with him...

@Gentlefish: Do you see what I mean?

@Hapah: Wait, what?

I think there's something fishy, pardon the inadvertent pun, going on - roo was, as far as I can tell, referring to the question I asked you.  As you have not yet answered, I'd prefer to not explain the rationale behind it till I get an answer.

His rationale was REALLY worth the three day wait.

@doll: *reads post* ...Hey!

@doll re:RVS: Has anyone else claimed?  Do I have a power role?  But generally, unless someone else claims...No, I wouldn't.

doll:Note that my original post in this thread contained a question to Hapah.  I have been interacting with players other than roo, specifically Gentlefish and Hapah (and some tangential explaining to Johiah).  So why do you say I'm only interacting with roo?

I'm still waiting on Hapah's answer to my question, by the way, and I really don't want to explain why I'm asking it until after I have the answer.  This isn't going to change, so please stop pestering me about it until I've got an answer.

@doll again: I'll make a case as soon as I feel like there's a reasonable case to be made.  That's kind of hard to do in RVS.  If you think lynching me for wanting to have some actual suspicion of scumminess before trying to lynch someone is a valid move, go for it, but I don't think that makes much sense.

I'm like halfway through with this and working backwards from most recently to least, so I'm writing comments backwards. I can't possibly see how these improve any further than this. It's so frustratingly annoying to play with him.

roo: Okay, normally I wouldn't mind if someone said I'm town, but seriously, quote those posts and explain why.

Thanks for ICing, I C U R playing.

Disclaimer: I've had a few drinks.

TBF: What question are you looking for me to answer? This one?

....
roo: Are you going to continue being incomprehensible?

Hapah: I've seen you around but never been in a game of Mafia with you.  What are some examples of your town and scum play?

Yes, that one.

@doll: I do believe I asked you a question, along with everybody else.  So here, have a followup: Why do you think my asking people which RVS questions they dislike is a bad thing?

Because the question is as useless as your entire involvement in this game.

webadict

Why?

But really, why?

TBF: Man, it's literally been 3 or 4 years since I played. There's no way I'm gonna remember individual games at this point unless they were nuts, and even then I'm only gonna remember snippets.

I remember tunneling the everloving shit out of Shake in a King of the Mafia. I remember reasoning out that Tolyk (I think it was Tolyk) was scum in one game (a BYOR I think) when he changed his claim just a bit. I remember dinging Book with a fakeclaim in my first very game, and I remember lynching myself in a Beginner's Mafia game long ago (don't do that). I remember being a Snowman in a Cybrid Mafia game, and I vaguely remember some Mafia game that was about CCGs? I think people have Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic The Gathering and all that good stuff. But if you're asking me for specific details of how I played in games long past, I can't really help you.

Mm.  Alright then.

Well, since it's been 3 or 4 years since you've last played, I guess your meta would've changed anyway.

I... don't really have any questions.

Why not?  Surely there's something that stood out?

Doubloon-Seven: You're not new to the concept of Mafia.
Why are you doing even worse than me at it?

This motherfucker has the audacity to say that.

doll: What exactly makes you think I have no intent to contribute to the discussion, exactly?

Wow, seeing all of his posts in one place really sums up the whole of his activity, doesn't it?

...Heck, I asked roo why he was voting for webadict before you did...

Activelurking.

Oh for...

One: People vote for less reasons than "I really think this player is horrible" in RVS.  But if you're going to call me on that you really ought to call webadict om it too, because he's voting me for the exact same reason I'm voting roo.

Two: You do realize the context of the second quote, in which Johiah was suggesting we disarm the nukes that are entirely fluff?

Three: None of these explanations have anything to say about scumminess.

@Johiah: Why are you bandwagoning?

@Doubloon-Seven: Explain more thoroughly.

The ONLY useful post he's had all game. Took him 28 failures for that.

Doubloon-Seven: Is there a point at which, regardless of alignment, you would lynch a player?

Never follows up on the question.

...Hapah, you seem to be activelurking just a bit.

Speaks for itself, might as well buy the kid a mirror.

doll and webadict: Why exactly do you people think I'm "not playing nicely with the other children"?  What the heck is it that you think I've done, or do, that makes my play worse than anyone else's?

Never replied to what I said. Hasn't bothered to improve. This isn't even the first time anyone's called him out.

@Hapah: I was hoping to get an idea of your town meta and scum meta, but it's been four years and you don't remember details, so your meta has probably changed.  But if you were scum, you could have fed me bad intel, as was.

Useless.

And keep throwing tbf in my face with a perpetual nuh uh this this tbf is trash.

I am rubbing your nose into it, because apparently, this is what needs to be done. In order to properly train a misbehaving child, you must constantly reinforce the lessons you're trying to teach them. The lesson here is that TBF is the bad influence child that none of the other children should be allowed to hang around. Not because he hangs around drug dealers or gang members, but because his parents don't really do anything about him running in front of cars, and it's only the third time this week he's been hit.

I'm trying to find scum. I'm not interested in tbf.

Cool, but you're looking in the wrong place. I've written more in this single post than TBF has written all game. You want to know why? Because I actually care a little bit about trying. Your tunnel vision lets you only see the bad parts of what I'm doing, and you refuse to acknowledge that some players play this game like benevolent dictators. I'm going to expose this playstyle to you. If you think I'm bad, you should see doll. If you want to start learning, try thinking a little bit harder and get back to me when you realize that even though you think what I do is wrong, it is done for the right reasons. Maybe you'll learn. Maybe you'll get to join TBF in the nearly-hopeless category. Frankly, I don't really care about you. You care too much to be scum. How's that for a read? But you probably won't read this far before you type your scathing review of today's web post.

So, we done yet, or do you want to learn a little harder?

[webadict]

God, can this web guy get any more consistent with his words. It's almost like he's believing in the things he says.

Alternatively, here's a direct quote from TBF this game:

roo: Wait, you sound coherent.  What happened?

Great stuff, this guy is the epitome of towniness. If there were 9 of him, the game would read like the world's worst Twitter feed.

[TheBiggerFish]

webadict:Firstly, that's one quote, out of context, that seems eminently reasonable to ask considering how roo is often...rather more incoherent than not.  Secondly, it was actually a little suspicious, though I somehow managed to gloss over the entire first half of the post that prompted this response, which was far more...usual.  roo being coherent is like Tiruin being aggressive - something's probably up.

[doll]

Spoiler: Addressing Gentlefish (click to show/hide)

Learn to read lol

Gentlefish is suspicious. I'm not making a big case out of him because he has yet to respond, and the longer that goes on the harder it'll be for him to reverse any bandwagon I set moving in his path.
Note here that I've stated my intent in positioning the town. I am, as it were, being honestly less than honest, even though I am voting for the target of my suspicion. But I don't seem to want you to vote him yet, because I want him to make it easier for me to get you to vote him. Since he has an out for this (doing what I want and going for something, answering my questions), it also makes it easier for him to avoid the lynch if I can get him to do what I want, which is to give me an opportunity to read him (and so decide if I want to push for the lynch after that or not).

Bruh, it was the weekend. I was around on the forums but I just came out of the busiest school week of the semester for me, of course I didn't want to sit down and tip-tap out these long-ass posts when my brain is broken. I'm here now though so let's get into it.

Bruh I work ~75 hours most weeks and study full time.
Intermittent inactivity is just part of the game. You don't need to make excuses. You will get lynched if you're inactive for too long at a critical time, but nobody really cares otherwise.

You talked about about there not being "a hammer system". I actually had to google that, thank you. It's RVS and we have until wednesday for our votes. If it makes you happy I'll leave my vote on someone, but right now I'm using it as a tool to get people to talk. People don't like votes on them even if they aren't getting lynched because it means someone doesn't believe them or thinks they're a hindrance. And here you're saying you don't want people to vote, but only on a specific person? The person who I've personally voted for, before you, after having built a case, you don't want people to vote for. Okay.

Why are you trying to lead a personal charge against TBF? Why did you say you don't want others to vote him? Miss me with that "seem" noise, you straight up justified it right after that.

The paragraph that you quoted was addressing you.
I was explaining that by saying nothing in regards to you, it would be easier for me to get you lynched for your inactivity.
Now, I didn't want to lynch you for inactivity; I wanted you to be active. Having the option to lynch you for inactivity was hedging my bets in case you never posted.
Since you are posting, I can base my interpretation of your play on what you say from here on out.

Spoiler: Addressing Hapah (click to show/hide)

Hapah
It's Day2. A scum player was lynched D1. A single player claims cop D2. Are they the cop? When would it be acceptable to lynch them? Do you pay any attention to their reports?

I think you almost have to believe him at that point, in a semiclosed game like this. I mean, that would be a bold going on foolish scumclaim: I looked at the role possibilities and two out of the three have an actual cop, right? If you fakeclaim cop as scum D2 and the real cop claims, one of you is gonna get lynched day 2 no question. And good luck talking your way out of that when you claimed Cop and the real one flips. I guess a vanilla townie could claim Cop, but I don't see what they could gain out of it (and it seems like an anti-town move).

Well lucky I'm not scum then because you'd have been fucked.
In games where scum are not blocked, they are statistically likely to be correct in assuming there is no cop (there is literally a better than 50% chance that either they find the cop or there was no cop).
Clearing a mafscum is auto-loss for the town.

Also, the cop will never flip in this game. Mafia 100% have a role-cop. That means that after N1, mafia can kill the player they inspected last night. If that lets mafia close out the victory, then that's what they'll do.

That said, it was a good answer, and it told me a lot.

Changing your vote around is a towntell, if anything.

I think that's a new viewpoint for me. I know you expanded on it a bit below this and I snipped it, but could you go a little farther? Throwing a vote around isn't exactly hard.

I'll give you the historical summary:
NQT determined quantitatively that the most active player was always town and that players switch their votes around more as town. This caused quite a stir, though it was quickly supported by anecdote since after all it was true.
Now, I'm much more of an interpretativist myself, but the fundamental fact is that this is true. My interpretation of the findings of the research I have outlined before, in saying that town don't actually know if they are doing the right thing and afraid that they are not (and are therefore quite jumpy).
Now, all this is a function of temperament and style anyhow, so it's hardly as if it stands alone from anything other than metatells.
However, it is useful to note this point in order to counteract the idea of these points as scumtells (a meta-interpretation of wisdom handed down from the ancients, the reasoning from which this heuresis arose being lost to time and so useless to us all).

Allow me to clarify: I am still in RVS because I'm still waiting for the initial response to several RVS questions I am actually interested in the replies to.

Can/will you go into detail once you have received responses?

I've already gone into a lot of detail on a variety of things.
What do you want me to do?

Spoiler: Chess with Penguins (click to show/hide)

For those who missed it, Webadict gave me the opportunity to drive home a case (i.e. impetus for a lynch) on him at a later date. By spelling it out here, I somewhat squander this advantage but not totally. Whether or not I want to lynch him in the future, I am more interested in seeing him contribute to town in the present and he can't do that while I engage him in this sort of metaplay.
There'll probably be a lot of WIFOM on my part on this point if somehow both of us make it to lylo, but that's unlikely to happen regardless.

Spoiler: Addressing 4maskwolf (click to show/hide)

claiming vanilla town is a neutral claim that is utterly meaningless to what my actual role is at this stage in the game.  For this same reason, me claiming vanilla town now should not be an issue should I claim a power role later on: if it is, I'll just point people to this discussion.

Well, I am the cop. See, that was utterly meaningless too. There's no reason to think that one Day 1 claim is any different from any other, as you so clearly have identified.
It's almost a running gag to scumclaim when asked that question (what your role is) or when asked if you are scum.
What made you choose Vanilla Townie (and so specifically, too) over anything else? Why answer at all? Why not refuse to claim, which seems the much more prudent choice?

It seems to me that so far your play has been an attempt to avoid the spotlight. Why is that?

Spoiler: Inactive Players (click to show/hide)

Johiah
Doubloon-Seven
Post, like, a lot more. We can't advance the game if you're not active. Do expect to die amidst a pall of resentment if you don't contribute.

I don't really need a protest vote anymore, because I wouldn't be too worried if the day ended here.
On that note,
TheBiggerFish

[johiah]

@Hapah
May I ask why you are voting me?

@doll I did ask this recently, but Hapah has not responded yet for me to say anything.

[webadict]

webadict:Firstly, that's one quote, out of context, that seems eminently reasonable to ask considering how roo is often...rather more incoherent than not.  Secondly, it was actually a little suspicious, though I somehow managed to gloss over the entire first half of the post that prompted this response, which was far more...usual.  roo being coherent is like Tiruin being aggressive - something's probably up.

I had 22 others in my post, of which 21 were the same. But thank you for finally trying here. See how you made like 2 points in this post? That means you created two productive posts this game, which means you beat your average.

Also, doll is mafia.

[TheBiggerFish]

Excuse me, I have done more than that over the course of this game and I'm pretty sure that if you were actually reading my posts instead of letting your bias against me ignore that I have actually been producing content.

[johiah]

-ship-
Also, doll is mafia.

Could you tell me how you came to that conclusion? (Not saying you're wrong, just wondering what I missed)

[webadict]

Excuse me, I have done more than that over the course of this game and I'm pretty sure that if you were actually reading my posts instead of letting your bias against me ignore that I have actually been producing content.

I worked backwards from your 29 posts at the time of my post. You had 29 posts. You had the content of one. You are the activelurker. You can't tell me that your posts add something even in the context they appear because they certainly don't, and you can click them to verify.

And if you actually cared, you'd continue to try as hard as you seem to right now. See what happens when there's a reason to try? You actually create something useful.

But you gotta try a little harder for me. Why shouldn't I vote you if you plan to stop helping after I do?

-ship-
Also, doll is mafia.

Could you tell me how you came to that conclusion? (Not saying you're wrong, just wondering what I missed)

You missed nothing. Doll feels off. He's mafia.

[TheDarkStar]

New polls show 44% of all nations want to nuke fish.


Hapah:
doll:
johiah(2): TBF, Hapah
Gentlefish:
Doubloon-Seven:
TheBiggerFish(4): 4maskwolf, webadict, johiah, doll
roo:
4maskwolf:
webadict(1): roo

Not voting(2): Gentlefish, Doubloon-Seven


Day 1 ends Wednesday, May 3rd at roughly 2pm forum time.

[TheBiggerFish]

webadict:So what exactly feels 'off' about doll?

[webadict]

webadict:So what exactly feels 'off' about doll?

My high hopes are dashed upon the rocks.

[TheBiggerFish]

Elaborate on your suspicions, I want to see if I can see them. 

[Gentlefish]

Spoiler: Addressing Gentlefish (click to show/hide)

Learn to read lol

Gentlefish is suspicious. I'm not making a big case out of him because he has yet to respond, and the longer that goes on the harder it'll be for him to reverse any bandwagon I set moving in his path.
Note here that I've stated my intent in positioning the town. I am, as it were, being honestly less than honest, even though I am voting for the target of my suspicion. But I don't seem to want you to vote him yet, because I want him to make it easier for me to get you to vote him. Since he has an out for this (doing what I want and going for something, answering my questions), it also makes it easier for him to avoid the lynch if I can get him to do what I want, which is to give me an opportunity to read him (and so decide if I want to push for the lynch after that or not).

Bruh, it was the weekend. I was around on the forums but I just came out of the busiest school week of the semester for me, of course I didn't want to sit down and tip-tap out these long-ass posts when my brain is broken. I'm here now though so let's get into it.

Bruh I work ~75 hours most weeks and study full time.
Intermittent inactivity is just part of the game. You don't need to make excuses. You will get lynched if you're inactive for too long at a critical time, but nobody really cares otherwise.

You talked about about there not being "a hammer system". I actually had to google that, thank you. It's RVS and we have until wednesday for our votes. If it makes you happy I'll leave my vote on someone, but right now I'm using it as a tool to get people to talk. People don't like votes on them even if they aren't getting lynched because it means someone doesn't believe them or thinks they're a hindrance. And here you're saying you don't want people to vote, but only on a specific person? The person who I've personally voted for, before you, after having built a case, you don't want people to vote for. Okay.

Why are you trying to lead a personal charge against TBF? Why did you say you don't want others to vote him? Miss me with that "seem" noise, you straight up justified it right after that.

The paragraph that you quoted was addressing you.
I was explaining that by saying nothing in regards to you, it would be easier for me to get you lynched for your inactivity.
Now, I didn't want to lynch you for inactivity; I wanted you to be active. Having the option to lynch you for inactivity was hedging my bets in case you never posted.
Since you are posting, I can base my interpretation of your play on what you say from here on out.

First, I shall apologize for mis-reading your post. That really does change the tone. Secondly, I thought it was considered etiquette to not expect folks to post on the weekend.

I don't think that "Oh he's not posting on the weekend, let's not engage him so I can catch him for inactivity!" is really a solid move. I was, after all, planning on posting on Monday, like I had. Your posts didn't really motivate me to play during what I thought was a sanctioned its-okay-to-slack-off time. I'm glad you can base your interpretation of me off of what I post. I mean, I don't think there's another way to interpret someone here. Actions and words are all we have, right? I'm not missing anything? And then you try to pressure me into activity when you say yourself intermittent inactivity is acceptable? I hardly consider last weekend a "critical moment" of this game since we have until tomorrow afternoon and it looks like everyone's mind was made up already.

Is there something more you wanted from me? I'm more than willing to answer questions, seeing as back-and-forth can only help town succeed.
Johiah: Somehow my vote was missed in the count.

@Hapah
May I ask why you are voting me?

We're voting you because you're inactive. Be active and we may shift our vote.

@Gentlefish: what would you as a town IC that is focused on teaching do if the game stagnated?

If you were webadict how you decide when TBF  has "shaped up" and is no longer the best lynch option? "Shaping up" had no parameters nor examples of what "shaping up" means. Effectively "shaping up" can only mean lay down and die for me in this instance.

 Also who would you kill if you were mafia?

As a town IC I'd probably IC something about how inactivity loses for town and not to do that, then lead a crusade against inactive players if there's a dearth of interaction.

The second question is a passive-aggressive attack on Webadict but I'll answer anyway. He'd have shaped up if he left meta-game knowledge (haha kind of funny considering) outside of the game and didn't flit about from tunneling to tunneling.

As for whom I'd kill if I were mafia, I'd probably pick off Doll if they weren't. They're actually fighting the good fight which makes for strong town and really scary scum because they're always pushing the initiative and forcing everyone else to react. Failing that, if TBF survived the day somehow, killing him might cast doubt on everyone who voted him, so he'd be a good kill too.