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[TheInquisitor]

If you wanna talk suffrage, it's interesting to note that only 1.3 percent of the population voted in the first American Presidential election in 1787. The 1792 election was even smaller, with 0.5 percent of the population voting.

[Max™]

I know you weren't intending the changes to increase the amount of people voting for Trump, certainly, but beyond that I really have no idea. Allowing non-citizens to vote seems crazy to me, so if you want to advocate that idea you'd do well to explain it clearly along with whatever limits (if any) you are proposing.

READ BEFORE POSTING

Lemme help:

Ultimately I would rather someone I disagree with be allowed to vote than anyone be prevented from taking part in government when they wish to do so.

Citzenship right now involves arbitrary hoops and standards, people who fall out of other people while here gain it, even when many act like they don't want it, while others who work and strive simply to come here are arbitrarily blocked because why? Dey tuk ar jerbs?

This is a land of illegal immigrants--who murdered the residents so they could call it legal--sorry, I meant colonists, later legal immigrants, and slaves.

Declaring that it's ok to come kill people who live somewhere and set up walmarts on their graves but it's not ok for others to come here to harvest produce for shitty pay so we have something to pass over and ultimately throw away from that walmart is fucked.

[ChairmanPoo]

Not at all like a guild.

See, that model lasted quite a while in Spain during the Franco era. They called such organizations "Vertical trade unions". The "reasoning" behind this: merge employer's associations with trade unions, and   class warfare is eliminated.

Now, I guess you can imagine how much say did workers actually have in such organizations. At the end of the day they were run by regimee stooges and businessmen. So it was actually some big fish sitting together and deciding how to fuck over their workers with little chance of reply from the latter.

[Neonivek]

Right now it's just quietly accepted as fact that felons, undocumented immigrants, and the directly disenfranchised groups (minorities and the poor in various locations with voter id/etc laws) can't vote.

Right now it's just quietly accepted as acceptable that felons, undocumented immigrants, and the directly disenfranchised groups (minorities and the poor in various locations with voter id/etc laws) can't vote.

Care to elaborate the difference?

The first one is a statement of how things are.

The second is a statement of how things should be.

I feel like you're expecting me to respond to something you didn't type yet

Unregistered immigrant... is kind of a non-entity as far as government is concerned so to speak... because they are unregistered.

Hence why I referred to them as ghosts.

[TheInquisitor]

I know you weren't intending the changes to increase the amount of people voting for Trump, certainly, but beyond that I really have no idea. Allowing non-citizens to vote seems crazy to me, so if you want to advocate that idea you'd do well to explain it clearly along with whatever limits (if any) you are proposing.

READ BEFORE POSTING

Lemme help:

Ultimately I would rather someone I disagree with be allowed to vote than anyone be prevented from taking part in government when they wish to do so.

Citzenship right now involves arbitrary hoops and standards, people who fall out of other people while here gain it, even when many act like they don't want it, while others who work and strive simply to come here are arbitrarily blocked because why? Dey tuk ar jerbs?

This is a land of illegal immigrants--who murdered the residents so they could call it legal--sorry, I meant colonists, later legal immigrants, and slaves.

Declaring that it's ok to come kill people who live somewhere and set up walmarts on their graves but it's not ok for others to come here to harvest produce for shitty pay so we have something to pass over and ultimately throw away from that walmart is fucked.

The colonists weren't "immigrants" because there was no nation for them to immigrate to. They created one for themselves.

Not at all like a guild.

See, that model lasted quite a while in Spain during the Franco era. They called such organizations "Vertical trade unions". The "reasoning" behind this: merge employer's associations with trade unions, and   class warfare is eliminated.

Now, I guess you can imagine how much say did workers actually have in such organizations. At the end of the day they were run by regimee stooges and businessmen. So it was actually some big fish sitting together and deciding how to fuck over their workers with little chance of reply from the latter.

Was referring to Mosley's idea of it, in which the workers play an active role in the government of the Corporation. I'm not too familiar with the internal economic politics of the Falange, so I couldn't comment. I'll do some reading on the OSE and get back to you.

[Max™]

Neonivek: stop mixing in different usages and definitions. I'm very well aware how the government handles people who aren't in their records, I've been one and in various ways still am. There's a specific reason I use the term undocumented, lacking the necessary documents to be here, rather than illegal, which carries the connotation that this is on the same level as any number of crimes.

TheInquisitor: no. Just... no, being charitable and assuming you're just ignorant rather than trolling: a nation is a culturally or ethnically bound group, guess what native americans were? Guess why the word you picked is the exact wrong one?

Which people, and under what circumstances, do you believe should be able to vote? I'm talking about - can citizens of other countries vote? Does their age matter? If so, how will that be verified? Does everyone have to vote in person? If yes, how are you going to prevent people from voting in multiple locations?

I believe nothing, but it is not my job to read for you, throwing absurdities at me when I already said what I meant means you either didn't read, or you're being deliberately obtuse, yes?

[TheInquisitor]

guess what native americans were?

A bunch of primarily nomadic and constantly warring primitive tribes?

[misko27]

I'd like to remind everyone to maintain their chill composure. Direct it at people's arguments, not at them. This thread is already flamebait as it stands, no need to light the fire yourself.

This is a land of illegal immigrants--who murdered the residents so they could call it legal--sorry, I meant colonists, later legal immigrants, and slaves.

Declaring that it's ok to come kill people who live somewhere and set up walmarts on their graves but it's not ok for others to come here to harvest produce for shitty pay so we have something to pass over and ultimately throw away from that walmart is fucked.

The colonists weren't "immigrants" because there was no nation for them to immigrate to. They created one for themselves.

Oy, watch yourself with that. Don't confuse states with nations. There were certainly nations here before the colonists, which is why many of the recognized federal tribes have names like "Cherokee Nation", "Onondaga Nation", or "Oneida Nation", or the reason the Iroquois Confederacy was known as the "Five Nations" (or later, the Six Nations). A nation is just a people, with shared interests and/or political characteristics. But you are right that they were probably not accepting immigration at that time.

Was referring to Mosley's idea of it, in which the workers play an active role in the government of the Corporation. I'm not too familiar with the internal economic politics of the Falange, so I couldn't comment. I'll do some reading on the OSE and get back to you.

All I know about Mosley is that in Kaiserreich he leads the Union of Britain if it goes Totalist, which isn't the most overwhelming endorsement.

Neonivek: stop mixing in different usages and definitions.

Beware of the seduction of grammar!

guess what native americans were?

A bunch of primarily nomadic and constantly warring primitive tribes?

Nomadic? Constantly warring? Not in the east, at least. Does the term "The Iroquois Confederacy" sound familiar?

[TheInquisitor]

I have a sneaking suspicion that any response I make will get me banned for "racism".

[Max™]

guess what native americans were?

A bunch of primarily nomadic and constantly warring primitive tribes?

Ah, soooo, we're done then?

Which people, and under what circumstances, do you believe should be able to vote? I'm talking about - can citizens of other countries vote? Does their age matter? If so, how will that be verified? Does everyone have to vote in person? If yes, how are you going to prevent people from voting in multiple locations?

I believe nothing, but it is not my job to read for you, throwing absurdities at me when I already said what I meant means you either didn't read, or you're being deliberately obtuse, yes?

I asked you very clear questions ('absurdities'? This is important shit when we're talking elections to the most powerful position in the world) and you're blatantly dodging them with the old con of 'The evidence is out there, it's not my job to find it for you!'. That's pretty pathetic mate.

I'm ignoring them because you're trying to dredge up a bunch of absurd justifications for voter id type of restrictions and then tossing in "oh hey, he probably means people who don't even live here can vote, and a bunch of times at that!" before using the "you're just dodging my valid and sensible points, how pathetic" shit.

I use specific words in deliberately chosen combinations to express ideas, you don't need to read between the lines and impart a bunch of absurd meanings so you can then attack an argument I didn't make, if you're arguing in good faith and honestly so confused by what I said that you somehow feel the need to bring up voter id justifications... holy fuck bro, how did you do that, did it hurt, should we call an ambulance?

[Azzuro]

Right now it's just quietly accepted as fact that felons, undocumented immigrants, and the directly disenfranchised groups (minorities and the poor in various locations with voter id/etc laws) can't vote.

Right now it's just quietly accepted as acceptable that felons, undocumented immigrants, and the directly disenfranchised groups (minorities and the poor in various locations with voter id/etc laws) can't vote.

Care to elaborate the difference?

The first one is a statement of how things are.

The second is a statement of how things should be.

And as I said, things are the way they are because a majority of people feel that's how it should be, or can't be bothered to change the status quo. The distinction is meaningless in the context of Max's post.

guess what native americans were?

A bunch of primarily nomadic and constantly warring primitive tribes?

Nomadic? Constantly warring? Not in the east, at least. Does the term "The Iroquois Confederacy" sound familiar?

I'm 99% sure TheInquisitor is a troll, quit responding to him.

[TheInquisitor]

People who disagree with me are just trolls!

I guess if we've degenerated to that point in the discussion, I'm going to leave and go back to writing some more constructive posts about dwarves.

[Azzuro]

People who disagree with me are just trolls!

I guess if we've degenerated to that point in the discussion, I'm going to leave and go back to writing some more constructive posts about dwarves.

You mean all the constructive posts made before you first started posting in this thread? Sure, do that.

[Max™]

I use specific words in deliberately chosen combinations to express ideas

You use specific words deliberately chosen to construct a utopia, and then present arguments than only exist inside the utopia your words have created. When people try to transpose your arguments to the real world, you accuse them of trolling you and refuse to address their points.

No, Iain M. Banks used specific words deliberately chosen to construct a utopia.

I didn't put forth an argument, I put forth an idea: claiming the right to vote should grant the right to vote.

You jumped in and dumped out a big bag full of voter id type arguments next to that idea and said "see, you did this, Max!" for some reason. If you want to deconstruct your own arguments, go for it, it's not difficult, but stop acting like they're mine.

[misko27]

I have a sneaking suspicion that any response I make will get me banned for "racism".

I doubt that this is the reason you'll be banned. I mean you came in here and announced yourself as a fascist; given the circumstances, you're being treated quite well. But the fact that natives weren't nomadic, at a minimum, is a matter of public record. Both Iroquois and the Northwest used Longhouses, for example. Nomadic isn't racist, it's just wrong.

But if you want to leave, it's probably wise. I don't know how long this thread will last anyway.

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St. Mainiac is in the distance, calling names.