Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[MrRoboto75]

... y'know, isn't there some kind of D&D modern ruleset?

Of course.

Its not very good but it does exist.

[beorn080]

By level 7, magic is seriously coming into play. A single decently built player character could probably kill a small village, regardless of class.

So, would you say Highlander type power? Wolverine might be the modern equivalent.

No. Simply the fact that everything level 1 commoner dies in one hit. At that level, or possibly level 5, wizards get fireball and lightning bolt. By themselves, they can tear apart large chunks of a town.

Also, Neonivick, at a start, Minor Creation. Black lotus extract is plant mater, and you make 20 cubic feet of it. Or, for more cheese at level 20, a gnomish shadowcraft mage casting Miracle as an 150% real illusion spell. Pretty sure Miracle could wipe out a kingdom, if the diety agreed to it, and since its a made real illusion, well, no diety gets involved.

[Neonivek]

Shadow spells have very specific restrictions. (Both type of spell and level of spell). As well that specific class hits a maximum of 100% (Not that it is normally possible to go past that. The most potent Shadow Spell gets to EXACTLY 100% with this class). A shadow spell that can copy Miracle is an epic level spell... Not even Miracle can copy Miracle.

As for minor creation... Ignoring other rules that could come into play... Sure... Just roll the craft check to make 20 cubic feet of Black Lotus Extract. The DC is only in the hundreds. Poison craft checks are measured in single doses.

Miracle ALSO has very strict rules as to what it can and cannot do... It cannot wipe out a kingdom. At that point it isn't a miracle so much as the deity itself just showing up because you asked.

[beorn080]

Shadow spells have very specific restrictions. (Both type of spell and level of spell). As well that specific class hits a maximum of 100% (Not that it is normally possible to go past that. The most potent Shadow Spell gets to EXACTLY 100% with this class). A shadow spell that can copy Miracle is an epic level spell... Not even Miracle can copy Miracle.

As for minor creation... Ignoring other rules that could come into play... Sure... Just roll the craft check to make 20 cubic feet of Black Lotus Extract. The DC is only in the hundreds. Poison craft checks are measured in single doses.

Miracle ALSO has very strict rules as to what it can and cannot do... It cannot wipe out a kingdom. At that point it isn't a miracle so much as the deity itself just showing up because you asked.

Shadow spells do have specific restrictions. They can recreate conjuration and evocation spells one spell slot lower then themselves.

Earth magic feat allows gnomes to cast spells as though they are one spellslot higher.

Heighten magic lets you increase the spellslot of a spell up to 9th level.

Heighten a silent image to 9th level, Earth magic lets that spell act as a 10th level spell, thus allowing replication of any wizard spell 9th level or below. Also, epic level spells are different then 9th/10th level spells.

Arcane Discipline(luck) puts every spell in the luck domain in the wizards spell list. Miracle is in that domain. In addition, Miracle is an Evocation spell, so Shadow spells can replicate it.

Given that shadow spells can get up to 100% real, though I've seen theorycrafting that puts that maximum higher, but it doesn't really matter, you are able to use silent image to craft an illusionary miracle, that, due to its illusionary nature requires no deific consent or input, that acts as though it were a 100% real Miracle. The components, specifically XP cost, do not come into play, as you are not actually casting Miracle, but Silent image. At a minimum, this gives you access to every 8th level cleric spell, and every 7th and under spell. Given the list of advanced powers, it would not be unreasonable to say that, for example, rather then protect a kingdom from a volcano, you destroy a kingdom with one.

[NullForceOmega]

Every sane DM in the universe uses power word: NO.

Insane metagame crap that any reasonable DM would throw out is not an accurate depiction of a classes relative power.

[Neonivek]

Oook...

Well... For one there is no 10th level.

Two Shadow Spells list a very specific type of spell they can copy, not "Of one level lower" or "Two levels lower"

Three Silent image does not work that way... at all actually.

Four even though you have added it to your class list... It still isn't a Wizard spell. That wording is there to prevent you from taking Prestige classes that way.

Given the list of advanced powers, it would not be unreasonable to say that, for example, rather then protect a kingdom from a volcano, you destroy a kingdom with one.

Miracle and Wish are the ultimate defense, but not the ultimate attack.

---

There are exploits, but that isn't one of them.

[beorn080]

Heighten + Earth Spell can get a spell being the equivalent of a 10th level spell for all level-dependant purposes except it takes a 9th level slot.  Using Silent Image and Shadowcraft Mage, you can replicate any Sorcerer/Wizard Evocation, Conjration (Summoning), and Conjuration (Creation) spell up to 9th level, but you only have the casting time and components of Silent Image.  Using Arcane Disciple (Luck), you get Miracle added to your class spell list (assuming at least a 19 Wis, but that's easy to get).  Since it's an Evocation and now on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list (assuming you are a Sorcerer or Wizard), it's a fair target to mimic with Silent Image.  Since you aren't actually casting Miracle, you don't care about its components (such as the XP cost).

Arcane disciple adds it to the CLASS SPELL LIST. That is the direct wording of the feat. For that character, they become wizard class spells. And yes, you are correct, there are no 10th level spells. With earth magic, 9th level spells become, effectively, 10th level spells. As for Miracle and wish, the descriptions say of equivilent power. Especially in the case of miracle. It lists mostly defensive uses, however, asking Poseidon to use a tidal wave to wipe out an invading army or evil kingdom would be consistent with the power level mentioned in the spell.

Edit: And yes, a DM is very likely to fiat this into non existence. However, the OP requested respective power levels. This would be at the top end of power levels. Considering the Genesis spell allows for vast time manipulation and is also available at level 20, this is a very roundabout way of getting to the same result.

[Neonivek]

Anyhow checking it...

Heighten Spell doesn't work with image spells that way due to: "The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell"

The difference is that it has an altered reality (and it cannot go above 100% either way. I mean think of it this way, it would mean if they fail a roll, the spell becomes LESS real) which it specifically states.

The -1 level refers to its original level because that is how Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation (And shades and shadow spell) work.

And apparently the book you got this from is considered one of the worst books ever written for dnd. and not only do people find mistakes to this day, but they never printed an errata.

---

Though yes this is ignoring that Miracle doesn't work that way (And it is dubious and interpretable if Arcane Disciple functions that way IF you understand why it is worded that way).

It isn't reversible because it is the ultimate defensive spell, not the ultimate offensive one.

The best 9th level spell for taking down a town... is in the Druid's spell list to my knowledge.

Every sane DM in the universe uses power word: NO.

Insane metagame crap that any reasonable DM would throw out is not an accurate depiction of a classes relative power.

Yeah pretty much indeed.

DMs sink these builds out of the water.

It is why the build you are referring to Beorne080 actually talks at length about how to sneak it into the game. It knows it isn't legal

[Scoops Novel]

By level 7, magic is seriously coming into play. A single decently built player character could probably kill a small village, regardless of class.

So, would you say Highlander type power? Wolverine might be the modern equivalent.

No. Simply the fact that everything level 1 commoner dies in one hit. At that level, or possibly level 5, wizards get fireball and lightning bolt. By themselves, they can tear apart large chunks of a town.

That sounds a lot like wolverines capabilities.

[clone95]

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

Relevant article on power levels in 3.5 - I can't speak to other editions, but this sorta translates to Pathfinder.

Most people on Earth are somewhere around 1st level maybe 2nd level. They've got their stats and a few skill points in a relevant field - an NPC class and poor hitpoints showing they generally don't get into fights except the occasional fisticuff. A 4th Level person is someone like a Special Forces soldier or a Brain Surgeon. A 5th Level individual is someone who can casually kick ass at their craft. This author stats Einstein as someone with +15 to Knowledge Physics thanks to Skill Focus/Int ability score. That's enough to take 10 the majority of casual physics questions.

He even stats Aragorn with his displayed feats in the books/movies as a Rgr1/Ftr1/Pal3 at the most.

So when you look at characters above 5th level, you're looking at superheroes - people who are truly a cut above even an exceptional person. You're a protagonist in a solo game - and with a party of five 7+ characters you can single-handedly capture castles and do other mythic-type shit.

When you hit 10th level, you're truly a group of demigods. When you hit 20, you're steps away from being a divine character. Imagine a 20th level Blacksmith crafting with absurd skill focuses? They'd basically shit out masterwork from touching a piece of wrought iron and shaping it with their fingers.

That's NOT to say that you can't have characters above 5th level - the intent of that article is to say that when your characters are even 2nd/3rd level they're already pretty important. Once you hit 4th/5th you're a badass. Once you hit 6th/7th, people are going to be amazed - and by 15th level you probably have a cult.

Eberron is the best setting where this is in action - most of the named characters are no more than 10th level.

[Neonivek]

While in 5e it is 10th level

But 5th edition is a LOT more grounded and lower power than 3.5 and Pathfinder are.

[Egan_BW]

Why are you defining these levels based on ideal builds? Most players don't play that way, and in a believable universe, nobody should actually be min-maxed to hell and back.

[Scoops Novel]

Well, if there's such a thing as a "average" build, use that instead.

[Neonivek]

Why are you defining these levels based on ideal builds?

They aren't... ideal builds... They are cheat builds

[Criptfeind]

Well, if there's such a thing as a "average" build, use that instead.

There isn't. People can say things like "oh a sane gm wouldn't allow that" but in reality every game is different and has different expectations for power and different appropriate things. Everything appropriate in some game and there isn't really an "average".