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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 394708 times)

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3675 on: July 07, 2017, 04:29:55 am »

I was unaware that it was a problem. Thank you for your patience.

Quote
0 - HA1-b "Mundane":
1 - Arstotzkan Equipment Update: Chiefwaffles
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres

0 Save the credit:

Glory to Arstotzka.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3676 on: July 07, 2017, 05:33:41 am »

Actually, Andres, could you have it so the AAA Blastshells work with the AS-HAC-1? Just so we can be one step closer to flak!

And are there any other benefits to upgrading Magegems other than a step towards better Blastshells? I mean, overall it seems like this may be putting one revision (better Blastshells) into effect using two, when we could be doing much more.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3677 on: July 07, 2017, 05:48:59 am »

Okay, wow, that is impressive. I am impressed.
P.S.
 Congratulations! You were actually right about something! Can you tell the difference?
Unneeded explicitly personal attack is unneeded.
I agree, I felt sort of bad about it, but there was a good reason for it too. You see, your statements are reliable incapable of determining accuracy and inaccuracy. If you are just a troll, then good for you! Well done! Advanced troll achievement gained!
 If not, then that statement is for you, and it is not an insult, it is am honest, if rhetorical, question. And an honest congratulations on your achievement. If that is the case then you clearly suffer from a very profound lack of awareness about how deduction works and I expect that you find yourself wrong about a great many things where you can't just shout people down. A bit more consideration might help you a great deal. Likely though, you are instead on the receiving end of such treatment, as is so often the case with such things... I really can't help you but do wish you the best.

 If, on the other hand, we are trying to balance out personal attacks...
RAM comes to make up more stuff trying to "counter" it.
the stuff you post is blatantly false.
your baseless assumptions.
I'm fine with arguing/discussing this kind of stuff with other people, but really.
 Other people don't just make up stuff
at least he makes an effort to actually support his arguments. You, on the other hand...
as always, blatantly untrue.
if you actually read
RAM pretends
Either RAM conveniently ignored this, or just doesn't understand this.
If any of these statements were justified, then they would be legitimate criticisms. They are not. They are just slander. They look like a malicious attempt to sideline someone by spreading false rumours. You have often claimed all of these things. "Enough repetition makes something true" perhaps? Not once have you actually presented an argument to justify them. If you are not going to establish what, specifically, I am presenting as false evidence, then these are purely insults, and far more perverse and malicious than than any mere slight on your character.
RAM comes to make up more stuff trying to "counter" it.
Also in response to the "A mist cloud would likely be blown away":
Nope.
See our "channeling mist" spell which explicitly works against wind by being continuously generated, which is the same thing a Tower of Mist would be doing. Actually, I just know you'll say "NUH-UH" then make up another thing saying that technically it doesn't work. But let me pre-emptively prove you wrong:
Obscuring Mist:  Cloaks a squad in a fog cloud, hiding their numbers and equipment, and making them harder to hit at range.
  Variant (Channeled Fog): A denser form of Obscuring mist, continuously generated. 
Revision: Channeled Fog [5]

Rather than just casting a cloud of mist and moving it about at will, our Mages have learned how to continuously conjure the fog.  This means the cloud will grow larger and larger the longer they stand still, and moving will leave a trail of fog.  This leaves more ambiguity as to how many men are hidden in the mist, and natural wind can't dispell the fog quickly enough to leave the men uncovered.  Only time will tell if the Moskurg's control of the weather will be enough to dispell our cover.
And I don't believe they've ever actually countered this. It's just not particularly useful. But even if I missed something and it's not viable because of wind (if you do want to say this, please bring evidence for once), do you know how we can fix that? More mist. Do you know what makes a lot more mist? Towers of Mist.
It is nice to finally see an attempt to argue something. You are sadly wrong here. As I posted shortly afterwards, there is a direct quote from The G.M. that the fog is blown by wind. Channelled fog is generated at the point of origin continuously and then obeys the wind. A fog tower would produce enough fog to cover an entire region. It would, however, not cover the region, it would only cover the parts that the wind blew it towards. Likely toward the tundra.

 Now, granted, there may be ways around this. Perhaps some sort of magical "ladder" that exists in all places and the fog can link to this and "climb" it. Or perhaps the fog is just faster than the winds that the enemy uses to oppose it. Or perhaps the fog is not material fog and doesn't respond to physical impetus. The fog's points of origin might be numerous and distant and thus can be moved to account for the wind and spread everywhere regardless. There are possibilities, but as it stands, fog is useless against wind unless you can put the fog-generator ahead of the thing that you are trying to hide, and make the fog-generator extremely obvious in the process.

RAM comes to make up more stuff trying to "counter" it.
Quote from: RAM
Personally, I feel that recharging a magem in an hour would be optimistic, a day would be pessimistic, a week would be something that we ought to be prepared for, five minutes would be a thousand birthdays at once, and "enough to maintain a third of our current rate of fire" would be something that we can potentially hope for, but really shouldn't.
Note how RAM is using this as evidence, yet it's literally just baseless assumptions. And I mean "baseless". There is no base to this statement. You're just saying "Well, I bet this is going to be bad, so therefore I'm right at saying it's bad!" like in nearly every argument you've made recently.
And here, again, you try to defend your statements. But can't help throwing out generalised slurs and consistently fail to have a valid statement. You are hinging your argument on me making unfounded statements about your design. I have not here made any unfounded statement about your design. I made it very clear that it was just my personal opinion as to what was likely. If I had cited it as fact then you would have had a point, but as it is I just presented what were very clearly my own opinions as to what we could expect and left it to others to discern if they agreed. You could have freely made your own personal opinions as to what the likely outcomes would be, that would have been a valid opposition, instead you just accused me of lying when my statement did not, in fact, contain any data that could have been reasonably construed as a lie even if it were completely inaccurate. <-and there is reasoning, not the finest ever, but an actual attempt to convey some justification for my position. Rather than just stating that my opponent is incompetent and failing to support the statement.

I am just looking for a little recognition that Chiefwaffles is slandering my ability to justify my statements, and is doing so with nothing to support those claims. We are both entitled to our own opinions. We can clearly state that one another are wrong. But making a concerted effort to establish that someone has no validity had better be backed up by some valid arguments or else it is just trying to murder someone. Which is exactly the correct term to use when you try to completely annul someone's presence.

Electricity doesn't just take the path of least resistance. It takes all paths. It's just that some materials are resistive enough to make the amount of electricity passing through negligible.
That may be true, I wouldn't know, but negligible quantities are not important.
Note that lighting goes from the sky to the ground. Air does conduct. Not well, but it does do it. Faraday cages work. You put a person in the middle, even a tall person, they will be safe. The path through the air and through the person is a path, most notably, the shortest path by distance, but it is not electrocuted...
The problem with steel is that it's not a great conductor
Not compared to copper, no, but compared to a human? It is actually quite rather good.
Observe the combat phase where Moskurg introduced their counter:
Titled "Heretics Fallacy", this frightening spell allows user to exert greater control over where and how lightning strikes.  They can't force it to perform impossible tasks, but they can encourage it to flow through an Arstotzkan soldier rather than down a lightning rod.
"They can't force it to perform impossible tasks" means essentially that they can path the lightning through the air to the armor. But to counter resistive crystal layering, they'd have to fundamentally break some very fundamental laws of how electricity works. Way more-so than they currently are.
Nope, they are breaking them completely right now. I am pretty sure that what that statement actually means is "lightning won't currently path through a window, up a flight of stairs, through a keyhole, along a curtain-rail, into a human head, and then down a drain. Which, ironically, would be more possible than ignoring a lightning rod. It would just need the right conductors in the right places to form the right path...
TL;DR: Electricity largely goes through the path of least resistance. When a human is in conductive armor, electricity will largely go through the human instead of the ground. When the human is covered by resistive crystal, electricity will largely go through the ground instead of through the human.
Which is why Faraday Cages are not a real thing.

Now, sure, magic lightning is obviously weird, so your made-up story about how lightning works ais as good as anyone's, but if we are talking about real lightning, then no, just no, not even a little bit.
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helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3678 on: July 07, 2017, 06:17:11 am »

Quote
Personally I think it's a better idea to just throw some Aethergems into Combat Armor and not bother with the splicing it directly into the soldier.
I'm sure we could do it, but it most certainly adds difficulty. 
I concede they may be more efficient ways to do that, but I dare say there is no cooler way to do it.

Anyways, we have a lot of tech we've sunk designs into that are having a negligible effect right now. The R1, the protector, our now obsolete frost towers. We have a lot of Game changers waiting in the wings if we are willing to finish them up.

We still have 0 air force. We don't really use our rifles. The protector is a mess.

I think we ought to focus on fixing designs for a bit before we design any new stuff. 

Aether gem integration is a no brainer, as otherwise our whole design was useless.

I'm thinking we ought to skip an R2 for now and go straight to a sort of gun "emplacement" that is belt fed and fully automatic. I might post a revision for such later.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 06:20:42 am by helmacon »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3679 on: July 07, 2017, 06:30:10 am »

Yeah. I definitely want to spend some time working on our lesser used stuff.

As for a new gun, I just think belt fed isn't the best we could do. We have the ability to summon ammunition at will. Let's use that.
Think of the advantages. Mages can fire even faster. We never have to worry about ammo. If we put the gun anywhere, we don't have to worry about physical access - we can simply put controls (via gears) in a safe place and the person never has to get to the gun via reloading.
Most importantly, it should be easy. We already know exactly how to summon crystals in any shape or form. We use small fabricator circuits to do so. We simply need to dial in a bullet/shell shape, and put the circuit into the barrel.

Compare this to having an automatic belt-fed/etc. weapon. We'd have to worry about constantly supplying ammo. If we ever want to put it on a vehicle, we have to either spend more time/effort developing automated systems to do that then worry about those systems getting damaged or else we have to compromise security + convenience to have it reloadable manually.
Then there's the difficulty. Right now, we know how to have a secure bolt-operated breech-loading system. I think it's very reasonable to revise it to semi-automatic self-feeding, but revising it from breech-loading to belt-fed in a revision (though you could have a design, but if we do crystal fab we could do more with a design) seems a bit ambitious. Maybe possible, but definitely at a heavy risk of some penalties. Much worse compared to crystal fabricators, which is an established Arstotzkan science using tech we already have.

Also, never having to reload. Ever. Imagine. The soldier of the future - power armor, a rifle with crystal fabrication, a personal Aethergem power supply. They never have to reload. Ever. Imagine the rate of fire!

If we do just Crystal Fabrication as a revision then we may be able to get away with applying it everywhere. Though we should probably have a prioritized cannon to fit it in first. I'd say the AS-HAC-1 and name the updated version the AS-HAC-2. Since it does have "auto cannon" in the name and that's a bit lacking.


But yeah. For a better gun, I'd say improve the AS-HAC-1. It has a lot of potential as an HMG/Autocannon/whatever. The rifle has its niche and a design can definitely help later, but an AS-HAC-2 would be very useful.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

andrea

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3680 on: July 07, 2017, 07:47:02 am »

I believe that bullet summoning is both more feasible and effective than belt fed, especially on revision.

I also agree that if we focus on crystal fabrication, we can probably get layered crystal on much of our stuff in one action.

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3681 on: July 07, 2017, 09:11:08 am »

Actually, my idea for belt feed included Crystal summoning.

The ammunition box contains an aether gem set up and the circuits for summoning of Crystal bullets. There is a singular circular belt that moves between the box and the gun, continuously replenishing its ammo.

I dislike the idea of having the entire summoning apparatus as part of the gun. It would make it enormous, unwieldy, and difficult to aim. If a single aether gem is the size of a fore arm, then an entire bullet summoning array is probably the size of the entire gun. Instead of doubling the size of our guns, we squash that down into a box. We could even mount that box to the gun later on if we needed to.

I don't think aether gems generate fast enough for indefinite fire, but it could certainly fire long enough for any practical application, recharging between firing.

The bigger concern is the mage gems powering the firing mechanism. If we get 2 shots from a single gem, maybe an easily replaceable core of 8 attached A gems? Enough for a long burst of fire. The automated ammo means you only need a crew of 2 to run the gun. One to switch out the gem core, and one to shoot the thing.
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Draignean

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3682 on: July 07, 2017, 10:06:04 am »

Well,  we need integration of the Aethergems, and I feel that needs to be our first priority. However, due to the greatly increased size of the Aethergems relative to mage-gems, I'm rather leery of trying to accomplish multiple objectives in a single swing.

I'm willing to try it on revision one, as an act of good faith, but I rather fear we might need to spend our second revision to fix our first revision.

Chiefwaffles: I'll vote for the Modernization Upgrade, but you should change the 'HIGH PRIORITY' tag you've got sitting next to every point with a ranking. I think Aethergem installation should be number 1, but I really have no preferences for the order of the other two.

Quote
0 - HA1-b "Mundane":
2 - Arstotzkan Equipment Update: Chiefwaffles, Draignean
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres

0 Save the credit:
1 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean
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andrea

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3683 on: July 07, 2017, 12:34:40 pm »

Aethergem recharging pack

This is a device made of one or more aethergems linked to each other, encased in a layered crystal shell to reduce chances of detonation during field operations. Circuits redirect magical energy generated by aethergems to sockets on the outside of the device where magegems can be inserted to be rechargedor where other circuits can be plugged in to power devices.

Common sizes include a 2 aethergem backup for troops, vehicle sized packages to run engines or field sized packages to help powering cannons.

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3684 on: July 07, 2017, 12:48:36 pm »

FYI, you won't be able to "update everything with all the new tech all at once".  That is waaaaaaay out of the scope of a design, let alone a revision.

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3685 on: July 07, 2017, 12:54:21 pm »

Voting for the Mundane, if anyone wants a flashier name, or has other suggestions, I am glad to change it.

Draignean

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3686 on: July 07, 2017, 01:01:49 pm »


Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane": Voidslayer, Draignean
1 - Arstotzkan Equipment Update: Chiefwaffles
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres

0 Save the credit:
1 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean

Voting for the Mundane, if anyone wants a flashier name, or has other suggestions, I am glad to change it.

What about Sublunary Cannon?
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Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3687 on: July 07, 2017, 01:56:37 pm »

Actually, Andres, could you have it so the AAA Blastshells work with the AS-HAC-1? Just so we can be one step closer to flak!

And are there any other benefits to upgrading Magegems other than a step towards better Blastshells? I mean, overall it seems like this may be putting one revision (better Blastshells) into effect using two, when we could be doing much more.
There's really no point to upgrading the HAC-1 to use blastshells. Keeping the upgrade focused on the HA1 shells is the best way to go. Using the revision for my idea rather than resizing it will probably give us more experience with shells anyway, so it'll get us closer to flak than resizing the shells for the HAC-1.

Upgrading magegems just for this is completely worth it, as the extra firepower it would give us would be nothing short of extraordinary, but it'll also allow for better designs in the future. That AAA magegems would be able to hold PSFs would be very valuable indeed and would allow for smaller cannons to fire blastshells.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3688 on: July 07, 2017, 02:33:17 pm »

So what if, instead of fixed Aethergems the HA1-b used a removable rack of gems.  They could have 3-4 racks recharging between shots, which would allow the thing to fire once every 2 minutes or so.

Also what about Lunar as the cannon name?

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3689 on: July 07, 2017, 02:59:25 pm »

Revision: Aethergem Fitting
We made our Aethergems, and now we can fit them into our designs.

Aethergem Fitting - We incorporate slots for Aethergems in the design. The Aethergems are protected by a crystal glass plate that can be slid (or rotated inwards) to reveal the gem, while the crystal glass allows seeing the charge level. The Aethergems of course will be linked to the circuitry of the weapon, and the number+size varies depending on the design.
Generally speaking the amount of Aethergems used will be as many as possible without raising the Expense over the expense of the Aethergem used and remaining practical size/weight-wise.

Now for the affected designs!
1.) AS-HA1 - We make a variant of the AS-HA1 powered by as many AA Aethergems as possible while keeping an Expensive rating. The Aethergems aren't enough to singlehandedly power a firing of the AS-HA1, but should be enough to reduce the crew requirement of the HA1 to 2 apprentices instead of 3.

2.) AS-HAC-1 - Aethergem fitting in a style similar to the AS-HA1. Ideal sitation: The AA Aethergem variant should be able to be used for extended periods of time without an apprentice, and the AAA Aethergem preferably hold enough charge for 1-2 shots before waiting to recharge.

3.) Crystalclad - The Aethergems should be like the AS-HA1, with an Expensive CC variant using AA Aethergems, and a Cheap one using AAA ones. General goal is to decrease apprentice requirement to 0 or 1.

4.) Protector - Aethergem Refitting. Ideal goal is for Protector to reliably be able to fire its cannons or be moving (not at the same time of course) on the Aethergems. At least for a respectable period of time. I'm assuming the Magegem battery here is already wired to the cannons. Ideally this should make it so one apprentice + mundane crew can reliably run a Protector at 100% efficiency if not already possible.


Okay, I've removed everything else so it's just Aethergems now.
Which is obtainable. We've done this exact kind of thing in the past. The scope is limited - we're just upgrading Aethergems now.

Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane": Voidslayer, Draignean
1 - Aethergem Fitting: Chiefwaffles
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres

0 Save the credit:

EDIT: Added numbers (the ones in bold) to indicate the priority of the Aethergems designs.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 08:18:22 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!
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