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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 391764 times)

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3345 on: June 20, 2017, 06:32:26 pm »

Well, if the GM said it, who am I to argue. The update could have been worded a lot better to make this clear though... /salt.

You can change my vote to mage gems so long as you emphasize the explosive nature in the revision.

@RAM
Based on the fact that our guns and cannons actually work fairly well using the fireball-C for propulsion, I am of the opinion that it does not form a vacuum. As for the reason, take your pick. If you are not of the same opinion, I recommend you @ the GM instead of assuming and building designs off of the assumption.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3346 on: June 20, 2017, 06:36:19 pm »

Blastball does not form a vacuum.
From the Discord:
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
The blast ball conjures smoke, heat, and exhaust in a small volume, then it rapidly expands.
Currently you can only conjur this in air.
A blast ball would more rapidly expand in a vaccuum, because the pressure differential is greater.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3347 on: June 20, 2017, 06:39:13 pm »

He guys, what if we summoned blast balls inside the enemy armor or ships...

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3348 on: June 20, 2017, 06:41:02 pm »

Blastball does not form a vacuum.
From the Discord:
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
The blast ball conjures smoke, heat, and exhaust in a small volume, then it rapidly expands.
Currently you can only conjur this in air.
A blast ball would more rapidly expand in a vaccuum, because the pressure differential is greater.
Whole conversation please. This lacks context.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3349 on: June 20, 2017, 06:44:05 pm »

@RAM:
Andrea: @evictedSaint would the blastball work in a vacuum?
evictedSaint: Hmmm...
Let's say yes.  If you had a vaccuum chamber, it would eventually fill with smoke from repeated blastballs.
Andrea: hm.  Ok, further clarification: to effectively apply kinetic energy, it needs a medium such as air or smoke? if we had a vacuum chamber , will a blastball push less than it would in air?
basically, I am trying to determine if it is worth to make a full pulsejet or if a gun barrel like configuration works just as well
evictedSaint: The blast ball conjures smoke, heat, and exhaust in a small volume, then it rapidly expands.
Currently you can only conjur this in air.
A blast ball would more rapidly expand in a vaccuum, because the pressure differential is greater.
EDIT: (A second look at the conversation reveals this final comment)
Andrea: Ok. So, I guess a proper pulsejet design should include an inlet pipe, otherwise the low pressure created by blasting air outside continuously would spoil efficiency



Quote
Revision:
4 - Better Magegems: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Helmacon
0 - Crystal Optics:

Myark:
2 - Send to Western Sea - FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
I edited in an emphasis on the explosive variant in the revision, helmacon, so I added your vote to Better Magegems. And I'm voting for Myark to the Western Sea because we have to reassign him now (no longer fighting in the Northern Sea) and I'm trusting Fallacy here without checking what the Western Sea is bordering.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 06:56:46 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3350 on: June 20, 2017, 06:50:39 pm »

GM, I apologise if this constitutes a break of rule 2, but I didn't have enough time to write all the questions I had the first time I asked about the design. Some of these questions do have relevance to future designs and how we'll approach them, however.

1. When we were designing the R1, we envisioned it using either an SF or a PSF to power it. To actually achieve the design, our engineers (researchers? mathemagicians?) revised a new version of Fireball - the SPSF - despite us not including such a revision in the original design document.

With the blastshell, there are two in-design revisions that could've been done, one of which we tried to go for. The first in-design revision could've been making magegems more powerful so we could outfit smaller shells with the designs or make the HA1 ones cheaper. (We did not try to go for this one.) The second in-design revision that could've been making the PSF-C exert a constant force rather than a brief force. (We did in fact try to go for this one.)

If adding an explosive payload would've made the shell too expensive, couldn't the excess success of the 6+1 have gone to achieving one of these two revisions? (The R1 got a 2 to effectiveness but we still got the Fireball revision.) If not, which stats and in what circumstances allow for these in-design revisions to be completed or to spontaneously happen? (A low complexity/ambition design might be it, but to my understanding high complexity/ambition designs just result in lower bonuses/higher DCs.)

2. Instead of completing additional design goals, couldn't the 6+1 have instead gone to designing a version that, instead of detonating the PSF-C to give it extra range, instead detonated on impact? You said that a shell which had both range and an explosive payload would've been NE, but this just has the explosive payload, no range boost.

3. As another alternative, could the 6+1 not also have given us an NE version of the shell that had both a range boost and the explosive payload in addition to the one we got?

4. If none of the above could be done, were did the excess effectiveness go? What happens to a design when it rolls more effectiveness than it needs to succeed (presuming that 6 (after modifiers) results in successful design)?

5. You said that if it had been given an explosive payload it would've driven the price to NE. To my understanding, the only way to get something to be NE is to get an expense result of 1 or less, with more complex/large-scale designs assigning maluses to the roll rather than increasing the DC. Is this not the case? If it is the case, another question: if an ambitious design, such as ours, were to get a 1 for effectiveness, meaning the design failed or did little, would that give a bonus to expense (making it cheaper)?
 5.1. Related to the above, in Sensei's game, Arstotzka's starting pistol had the Shoddy tag, which decreased reliability but also decreased its expense level by 1. (Removing the Shoddy tag increased its expense level but also increased its reliability.) Could we get something like that depending on how we roll and what we roll for?

6. To get some confirmation, how does revision ambition work? Say we were trying to get X, Y, and Z in a revision. If we designated X as the highest priority out of X, Y, and Z, would we have an equal chance of getting X as if we were to instead just trying to get X (with a low roll simply meaning we don't get Y and Z)?


Again, sorry if this breaks rule 2. If it does, I hope that it's at least significant enough and worthy enough to be worth it.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 07:13:58 pm by Andres »
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3351 on: June 20, 2017, 07:25:15 pm »

Summon gunpowder
We have discovered the the function of B.B.s is vastly different to what we would have expected. It actually produces explosive material and promptly detonates it. Using our vast knowledge of conjuration, it is quite easy to remove the latter part of the enchantment, resulting in a stable material that can be detonated with a flame. For now all we are doing with it is producing flasks of the stuff and handing them out to gun crews for reduced magical use, as a large gun can be loaded with a parcel of the stuff to be detonated with the smaller fireball spell used by the infantry model.


Smokeless B.B.s
As above, but instead we simply use our conjuration expertise to fine-tune the material produced to conjure something that is more powerful. Thus creating a more powerful explosive with less residue.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3352 on: June 20, 2017, 07:56:13 pm »

RAM, Evicted never said Blastballs produce any notable amount of smoke. Hell, in his statement about their smoke he also includes "exhaust" separately from smoke. I doubt we need to focus any amount on reducing the smoke element of Blastballs as it would appear they produce most of their exhaust via gases and substances that aren't smoke. If smoke was a problem, then Evicted would have said so. As for the more powerful explosive part, that can be better accomplished in a revision dedicated to just that.

Also, what's the point of gunpowder? It looks like all it does is introduce another thing to load, reducing our RoF, and making our forces rely on existing supply lines even more as now they need bullets/shells and gunpowder. It still needs a fireball in the end meaning magic use is still required, and we can get mundane usage of rifles much more easily by just making the magic component easier (aethergems, better magegems, conversion of other energies into magic, etc.) for mundane troops.


And on a related note, on a hunt for something else, I found this:
we should ask the GM if the fireball is actually explosive or if it is just a ball of hot gas that spreads on impact or something.

Don't get too caught up on specifics.  Don't forget that it's all dice and judgement behind the scenes of designs and revisions.
Just thought it was worth bringing up.
Funny that it was Andrea who asked it that time too, though.



Waitwaitwait.
Evicted, are our anti-magic bombs any use against their carpets? The bombs have shrapnel which are explicitly very good against unarmored opponents (and can even start fires).

Also, we could make anti-magic bullets/AS-HAC-1 shells based off of the anti-magic bombs. Shouldn't be too hard for a revision.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3353 on: June 20, 2017, 08:11:23 pm »

1)  No.
2)  Sure, you make a variant of the shell that explodes on impact.  Still Very Expensive, and still BLOS, but now you have explosive ammo.
3)  It could have, but after the bitching from the NE anti-magic shell I took off an extra -1 from the expense to drop the explosive aspect.  Now there's still complaining, but from the opposite end.
4)  Above 6 is still a 6, the same way below 1 is still a 1.
5)  Yes, that is the case.  No, only if you deliberately design it to be cheap or use only cheap components does it get an expense bonus.
5.1) I'm not going to introduce new mechanics, especially because my previous attempts to do so were met poorly.
6)  Revisions fix one specific aspect, maaaaybe two if it's a high roll and the fix makes sense for two.  For example, making circuits cheap made many things that used circuits cheap.

@waffles: yes, they were useful.  Back when their carpets flew within bow range your anti magic bomb arrows shredded them.

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3354 on: June 20, 2017, 08:21:00 pm »

Thanks for the replies, Evicted. But I have two more questions!

1.) How are their carpets usually utilized in the field? Are they basically the same as the airship, flying out of range and just spamming lightning, or are they doing something differently? I was under the impression that they were still flying over us, but evidently I was mistaken.

EDIT: Removed the second question, since it's probably a bit out-of-scope for a mostly-OOC question and I'm pretty confident in my presumed answer based on stuff Evicted already said.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 08:23:10 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3355 on: June 20, 2017, 08:35:27 pm »

Originally bombing, but as you've developed anti-air capabilities they've been standing off and spamming lightning.  They were pretty ineffective this last year, beyond dropping grenades on your troops.

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3356 on: June 20, 2017, 08:41:52 pm »

RAM, Evicted never said Blastballs produce any notable amount of smoke.

Also, what's the point of gunpowder?
They produce smoke, I wish to advance our explosives from gunpowder to smokeless powder. Because this is exactly the sort of ridiculous arbitrary attempt to make modern technology that doesn't fit into our abilities or needs that has been all the rage lately.

Gunpowder can be loaded into shells. We can easily synthesise shells of any construction that we want after am illion crystal actions. So it should be very easy to make HE shells using far mor energy than we could otherwise power. Now, granted, we could power something much better if we had the inclination towards ritual casting, but we don't so we may as well engage in mass-production of gunpowder to produce modern artillery shells...
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3357 on: June 20, 2017, 08:59:46 pm »

Let's look at the Wikipedia article for "Smokeless Powder".

Note this bit:
Quote
Despite its name, smokeless powder is not completely free of smoke;[2]:44 while there may be little noticeable smoke from small-arms ammunition, smoke from artillery fire can be substantial.
Note how we have gotten zero indication of smoke ever being a problem in this entire time we've had artillery, or even blastball artillery.

Notice how in his description of the Blastball's effects, Evicted said that it was smoke and exhaust. All chemical reactions are going to produce something - it's conservation of mass. Smokeless powder makes smoke and exhaust. Just like the Blastball. It was never said to be a problem, it can't reasonably be a problem, it's not a problem.

Oh yeah, and note this from last combat report:
With no steam cloud or movement required on their part, their often unseen and unheard beyond the report of their rifles.
That's right. Evicted clearly and explicitly states that our rifles do not produce any visual indicators of being fired. He even said no steam cloud. He wouldn't list this as a benefit if there was just a smoke cloud replacing it. He doesn't even mention a muzzle flash.

Given the fact there have been zero mentions of smoke clouds regarding artillery or rifles, I'm even confident that Blastballs produce less smoke than modern-day gunpowder.


And regarding gunpowder, I still don't get the point. I had a big quote-by-quote argument ready for this, but it really only serves to create salt and pollute the thread more. My point is that gunpowder is a worse form of Blastball with added limitations that we'd have to spend an action on for literally no benefit other than the entire "benefit" of "modernizing" us. I mostly wanted to respond to the smokeless thing because I'm afraid that there's a miniscule chance where if I don't, Evicted may go "Huh, why doesn't it make smoke clouds?". Again, miniscule chance, but it exists.



Also, regarding future actions, we should definitely try countering their tornadoes. Since it was explicitly stated to be the number one killer of our troops.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3358 on: June 20, 2017, 09:54:23 pm »

I mostly wanted to respond to the smokeless thing because I'm afraid that there's a miniscule chance where if I don't, Evicted may go "Huh, why doesn't it make smoke clouds?". Again, miniscule chance, but it exists.
Yeah, now this is the thing that I will not go along with. You are free to have your own philosophy on the matter, but Imma be open about stuff.

And you have sold me on us already using smokeless powder. S o we just gotta look up something even better!
Antimatter powder
Upon realising that B.B.s are actually a conjuration effect, bringing forth matter from nothing, we decided to go for the most reactive thing we could. It was very simple to mathemagically tweak the spell's design so that the summoned material was entirely reactive at a fundamental level. It actually turned out to be as simple as swapping the signs on a couple of spell-threads whose purpose we have yet to discern. The effect, though, is tremendous. After the tragic initial test with a small rifle, we have revised the spell to operate with a very very very much lower volume, creating a very very very much more efficient spell with which to power our cannons.
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

Kadzar

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3359 on: June 20, 2017, 10:49:02 pm »

Quote
Revision:
5 - Better Magegems: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Helmacon, Kadzar
0 - Crystal Optics:

Myark:
3 - Send to Western Sea - FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
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