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[VoidSlayer]

2.5 - Improved Frost Towers: Andres, 10ebbor10 RAM.5
1? Dragon Micro-Cannons: Light gorger?
0 Frost Thrower Heavy weapon emplacement:
0 AS-HC3 "Unending":
0 Flak Shells. AS-SO1-AA "Turbulence":
0 Lazarus Initiative:
0 AS-AMD1 "Obelisk":
0 Magegems:
0 Crystalworks:
0 Flares:
0 Sacrificial summons: Frost Vulture Aviary Program:
0 Summon Giant Fire-wasps.:
0 Tall Frost towers:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
4 - Giant Falcons: Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
1 - Flare Wands: RAM
1.5 Homing Fireballs: RAM.5 voidslayer

I am going to endorse my own fireball upgrade, we need to go back to the basics on this.

[10ebbor10]

Anyway, I think we may be going about things the wrong way. Countering the Moskurgian Airforce may be nice, but they're only effective because they can drop firebombs.

If we counter the bombs, we remove their naval, ground and Air advantage.

[10ebbor10]

On a side note, can we please, please return to a 2 designs per player limit.

There are 17 items on the list, most of whom come from just 2 players. It clutters everything up, and prevents real discussion.

Anyway, while we counter The Moskurgians, we must also remember that they have a wood bonus now. Any chance of taking the seas will be gone once they apply that to their boats.

[Generally me]

I have to say countering their use of wind seems the most prudent choice. They seem to use it effectively everywhere from their carpets, to arrow deflection, to their sailing. Your arguments for not getting involved with it, is it would take too long to get to their level. But the thing is you don't need to get to their level you just have to contest their use of it so they can't control it so precisely.

Something like a wild magic arrow that whips up the wind around it while using some of it to stay on course.

Maybe just a plain old anti magic ball you can shoot or something.

Or just a wind mages so we can, as I said before, just contest it.

It's unfortunate you can't really counter anti magic really, can't exactly have anti-anti magic. I wish anti magic wasn't allowed feels like a bit of a cop out to be honest, can't think of an inventive way to counter something? Anti magic!

[Andres]

Since the Giant Falcons looks like it's gonna win, can we at least use the Revision to make our frost towers cheaper? Doubled frost towers means double the cold. Good returns for a simple Revision.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[FallacyofUrist]

Making flares to use as anti-carpet flyers and spotter tools seems like a better idea.

But the frost tower is nice to upgrade. Like you've been saying, it provides a general bonus to all areas of combat. If you can convince me why the Moskurgs won't be able to counter it and turn it back against us, I'm game.

[Andres]

But the frost tower is nice to upgrade. Like you've been saying, it provides a general bonus to all areas of combat. If you can convince me why the Moskurgs won't be able to counter it and turn it back against us, I'm game.

Not just that it's a general bonus, but that it's an army killer, as proven by their use in the Mountains.

As for counters, well, it's impossible for Moskurgs to not be able to make a counter. ALL things can be countered. There is nothing that cannot be countered. That frost towers can theoretically be countered is, I feel, not a good reason to not vote for them, because if you apply that reasoning to other designs - "I will not vote for this because Moskurg can develop a counter" - then you will vote for nothing.

It should be noted, however, that Moskurg hasn't already developed anything to deal with our frost towers. The best they have is a slight mitigating effect. For the Giant Falcons, however, they already have a counter - Lucky Shot. Doesn't matter how many birds we have or how good they are, all they have to do is use a spell they already have and they'll be rendered useless. They have no such easy counter for our frost towers and it'll take a long time for them to develop one, during which time we will kill swathes of them with the frost towers and upgrade the towers so their counters are rendered useless.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[FallacyofUrist]

Which reminds me. We still need a counter for Lucky Strike.

Also, just how slight is slight?

Do note that it may be less powerful in a region that is not naturally cold as the mountains are. I agree that we should improve our towers, but I'm not sure now is the time to do it. Unless you have some idea that gets around their current counter(desert wind pushing the cold back onto us).

[Andres]

Also, just how slight is slight?

It only seemed to do anything in the Jungle and it downgraded snow to very cold rain, and the range of that was limited to just their own side.

Do note that it may be less powerful in a region that is not naturally cold as the mountains are.

That's not how it works. It works by decreasing temperature by a flat amount, not by amplifying what cold there already is. Just to make up a number, it decreases temperature in the Jungle and the Mountains both by 20C even though one is much hotter than the other.

I agree that we should improve our towers, but I'm not sure now is the time to do it.

Be sure. It would let us take the Plains, give them a sever debuff on the Jungle, and completely lock down the Mountains, allowing us to empty that region of troops so we can get the revision credit.

But honestly, why do you think now's not the time to do it? What critical component is missing that would justify it? That they developed flying units can't be it, because the frost towers will kill them/debuff them too. It can't be that their skirmishing is winning, because killing their armies would prevent them from skirmishing entirely. What, then?

Unless you have some idea that gets around their current counter(desert wind pushing the cold back onto us).

Their counter is crap, only works when they're near the desert, and the upgrades will negate the counter.

Glory to Arstotzka.

EDIT: You seem like a fairly reasonable guy. Can you explain to me the logic of "Something proven to kill entire armies will not help us in X area of combat as much as something else" that people have been using?

[Chiefwaffles]

I'll admit that part of the reason I don't want to bother frost towers is that it's just such a boring thing to do.
That and it doesn't just do our work for us. It makes it easier but they don't suddenly start to drop. You seem to believe that upgrading our frost towers with a design will suddenly freeze the enemy to death. It doesn't and wouldn't do that.
Their skirmishing advantage would stay just like it is. Their armies don't just disappear with frost towers.

My current support priority:
Magegems > Giant Falcons > Frost Towers.
But no one else seems to be supporting Magegems, so...


Oh, and regarding their lucky strike versus Giant Falcons: The design is made primarily to counter their carpets (which will be flying mostly out of range of even their artillery) and to serve as a basis for further improvement. Messenger and sentry roles are secondary, as are offensive roles.

[Generally me]

Can someone give me a reply on why we're not countering their use of wind? Plez

[Chiefwaffles]

Because it's a really hard spell to counter.
We've tried many times to get working Anti-magic ammunition to just straight-up keeping them from casting wind spells, but we keep on getting disastrous rolls on AM ammo. See the Equalizer for example.

And there haven't been many other other suggested possible ways of countering it other than stuff like that or multi-action improvements to the AM charm.

[Andres]

That and it doesn't just do our work for us. It makes it easier but they don't suddenly start to drop. You seem to believe that upgrading our frost towers with a design will suddenly freeze the enemy to death. It doesn't and wouldn't do that.

Except we saw exactly that happening in the Mountains. The cold wiped most of them out and what resistance left was token - nowhere near enough to stop us. It won't make all the Moskurgs freeze to death in the Jungle (it'll just give them a severe debuff), but it will make them freeze to death in the Plains, which our towers are currently making as cold as the Mountains used to be.

Their skirmishing advantage would stay just like it is. Their armies don't just disappear with frost towers.

The skirmishing advantage will vanish without, you know, skirmishers, which our frost tower will kill, which I am claiming they will do because they did that in the Mountains.

You are very frustrating to argue against. I say "They will be army killers, based on the Mountains", you say "They won't be army killers, because they currently aren't army killers outside of the Mountains". I say "Skirmishing will be diminished because they'll kill the skirmishers", you say "Skirmishing will not be diminished because skirmishers - and the armies they're attached to - are effectively immune to frost towers".

Sometimes you don't even provide that reasoning.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[Chiefwaffles]

The cold in the mountains was very clearly not the only factor.
And it also very clearly did not kill everyone. They'll still have skirmishes, their defense advantages, their formation advantages, and pretty much every other advantage of theirs. Just a bit less powerful than before.

Evicted, is it possible that we could be given a bit more details on how effective the frost towers are? It's hard to be sure when they're not the only factor.

[Andres]

Evicted, is it possible that we could be given a bit more details on how effective the frost towers are? It's hard to be sure when they're not the only factor.

+1. Either I will be vindicated or I will be shown a better path.