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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 393718 times)

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2205 on: May 10, 2017, 04:04:06 pm »

No, the Equaliser shells aren't a bad idea in theory, and when they work they work, but they're just horribly expensive and very unreliable. If we could get it them work, it'll negate their artillery advantage and will allow our mundane troops to be useful again.

If we don't try again with that design, we should instead focus on the frost towers. We won the Mountains with barely a fight because of them, so developing along that path will be very helpful.

The Onslaught was a bad idea from the very beginning. Leaving aside the problem of it being a large overreach, it meant once again neglecting the refinement of things we already have and did not help with any of the problems we're dealing with. No more new designs until we can make what we already have work.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2206 on: May 10, 2017, 04:10:05 pm »

The onslaught was a victim of miscommunication of ideas (I had envisioned just a more-or-less improved HC2-E) and believing that extra-LOS range was as easy as Long/Extreme range.
But no. It's helpful. Maybe spend a revision on lightening it at some point or design the Crystaclad to fit it, and it'll be even better.

Right now I'm leaning most towards the Flare revision (again, definitely a revision - we severely lower the power of our cheapest fireball to make it really bright and multi-colored) or Equalizer revision.
For design, I dunno. I want to move towards the Crystalclad, which involves Magegems and the Crystalworks.  (And by the way - another advantage of the Crystalworks is that it just overall increases crystal quality. )

But we'll see next turn. I'm sure Moskurg has done something extremely OP like rocket-propelled guided fire bombs with one design. (/s)
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2207 on: May 10, 2017, 04:15:56 pm »

Yeah...sorry about that.  I have a tendency to make some things too possible/powerful/easy.

Oh, on an unrelated note, how are your rifled barrels, cannons, shaped ammunition, large-scale steel castings, steam engines and plate armors treating you?

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2208 on: May 10, 2017, 04:21:41 pm »

There was little of the  strange celestial iron, only enough to make one unique object. Seeing a great opportunity here, he shared the information with his colleagues in an attempt to find the best use of this gift from above. Roboson offers one year of his votes to the person who creates a passing design that utilizes this celestial iron. (Redeemable by telling Roboson what to vote for).
AS-HB. This scepter, when activated, serves as a beacon that can be seen from the palaces of the gods themselves. This beacon allows their angels to make their way down to the earth and smite Moskurgs with mercy and holy fire. Due to the magical and holy nature of the scepter, it itself is a powerful melee weapon.

Right now I'm leaning most towards the Flare revision (again, definitely a revision - we severely lower the power of our cheapest fireball to make it really bright and multi-colored) or Equalizer revision.
You have evidently caught a brain bug. You read a small part of an update and while you may have originally jsut paid it some passing thought, it has grown inside your mind to be of great import, even though it is in reality not very important at all. It happens to everyone in these kinds of game at some point.

There are better things to do than make it easier for us to see when Moskurgs are skirmishing with us or vice-versa. More important things are removing their artillery advantage (Equaliser shells), killing entire Moskurg armies without a fight (frost towers), and securing a naval advantage by making a cheaper ship designed around our new steam engine.

For design, I dunno. I want to move towards the Crystalclad, which involves Magegems and the Crystalworks.  (And by the way - another advantage of the Crystalworks is that it just overall increases crystal quality. )
NO! As I have said before, we have a major problem of us moving quickly to a new design instead of refining older designs so that they become useful. Crystalclads are far too ambitious and require development of new technologies. We must learn from the severe overreach of the Onslaught. A middle step is needed, probably several, and only after refining what technologies we have to a sufficient level.

Glory to Arstotzka.

Yeah...sorry about that.  I have a tendency to make some things too possible/powerful/easy.

Oh, on an unrelated note, how are your rifled barrels, cannons, shaped ammunition, large-scale steel castings, steam engines and plate armors treating you?
Very poorly. Obviously you are super biased to Moskurg and you should give us free technologies to compensate.  :P

But seriously, I'm pretty sure Chiefwaffles was just joking.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 04:25:43 pm by Andres »
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Roboson

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2209 on: May 10, 2017, 04:23:38 pm »

Yeah...sorry about that.  I have a tendency to make some things too possible/powerful/easy.

Oh, on an unrelated note, how are your rifled barrels, cannons, shaped ammunition, large-scale steel castings, steam engines and plate armors treating you?

Lol! Sick GM burn.
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2210 on: May 10, 2017, 04:24:11 pm »

Okay, the obvious way to do exploding shells would be to invest in time metamagic, which would not be a terrible discipline to have, but we should probably fix our plant magic first. The other way would be to have a circuit which breaks another circuit which can cast. Time-metamagic would mean a circuit to place a horde of just-cast fireballs in stasis, to be releases when the time circuit breaks. The other way is to load it up with storage crystals and have somethign that can cast a massive fireball, again, when the external circuit breaks, either due to impact or we could do timed shells by placing circuits onto crystal shell-casings that expire when the crystals times-out. This latter approach would be vulnerable to antimagic... Or we could try to do something funky with antimagic charms... If we could get them to cycle the absorbed magic through a circuit, by which they would have a 'pressure-release', and if the circuit breaks then the antimagic charm can no longer release its pressure so it instantly absorbs the whole circuit and explodes...

We did exactly that with our anti-magic arrows. The result was dissapointing, and instantly negated by their anti magic.
The result was disappointing because the projectiles were too small to do a lot of damage, to my memory, and the focus was on negating magic than doing damage. As for being negated, can you recall why they were being negated? How can anti-magic be itself negated by anti-magic?
Because we didn't want it to go off in our own antimagic fields. I kind of dispute this, because the reasoning was that because it operated on our own antimagic theories, and the individual components were weaker than a full charm, the charm would absorb the magic before the bomb could get at it. But the reason that they don't detobnate is because 'they don't work in antimagic'... I feel that they should detonate in 'positive' antimagic, such as jamming fields and disruption forces. They should also detonate in 'neutral' antimagic, such as a binding effect on atmospheric magic, just at a slower rate, they will still absorb whatever they touch and still suck on their surroundings, it will just be that there is a force opposing them. Where they will not detonate is in 'negative' antimagic, which takes the magic away. Well, they can't absorb anything if there is nothing there to absorb... They were specifically designed to be weak to our own antimagic, but our charms are completely ineffective(Actually total non-interaction, it didn't even fluctuate or bend towards our charms or something...) against theoir antimagic too, so it is not a matter of force. Their antimagic also works over a range, and somehow can be magically manipulated into a magical dead-zone... Honestly, I think we should revise deicide as a means of countering their antimagic...

I was going to write this whole thing breaking down RAM's Spell-forged Steamworks proposal and how it was extremely over-ambitious (definitely more-so than the HA1 - just look at the post yourself) and how its benefits were vague and kitchen sink-y
Please reconsider, I would like to know the specific points that are concerning so that I can address them specificall. So far all I have is "over-ambitious" which sounds sort of liek a good thing to me. We may have trouble getting it to work but it seems worth it. But if there are specific points of concern then I can try to refine the design...

river powers steam engines
I do not know how a river could power our steam-engines. They work because of magical heating. It could serve as a source of water but they are already very water-efficient. I think that mechanical heating would be a massive invetment in research.
Instead of wasting wizards to make exact shapes of crystal, we let machinery do it for us. ...
the crystal starts as raw "blobs" but its hardness, weight, shape, and more is refined and manipulated ...
The result is much cheaper crystal items and products.
I don't understand how this works. We can currently make crystals to specifiic shapes, the circuits used to summon the crystals should be able to do the same. Also, being crystals, they are somewhat reliabnt upon their internal structure. It is not entirely impossible that some form of compression would enhance their qualities of hardness or weight, and it is possible that the substance that they are composed of could be modified, but the question again arises, if we find that this is possible, why not change the summoning spells to create this new material. I have failed to understand how an assembly line helps when you can conjure a fully-formed object from thin-air.

We've found that crystals are, in a way, "bound" to the summoning wizard. Being dispelled is likely breaking the connection to the wizard. So what if we made the crystals connected to themselves? Then the crystal is a solid object, now completely free of magic and immune to dispelling. The nature of the circuits used in the Crystalworks works great for this - the circuits can easily make "isolated" Crystal because the circuits are "isolated" themselves. No wizard is making this crystal.
The result is permanent crystals no longer tied to magic and therefore no longer dispelable.
This is very similar to what we have already done in binding the crystal objects to gems. I believe that the gem-bund axes that our thanes used were also dispelled, so binding them to the world didn't help. I can see that recursively binding them to themselves could give reality enough of a headache to just ignore them, but antimagic immunity? This makes them more magical, not less, unless I misunderstand. Is there some sort of magical quarantine effect that I missed that keeps their antimagic from reaching the circuits? Making them self-contained whould help if we had such a quarantine effect, but I would expect that we would prefer to extend it over our entire force if possible...

But mostly I have my own pet theory that hey are inherently opposed by reality because they came into being without replacing anything(like a house would replace a pile of bricks and lumber and nails and what-have you...) that would be invalidated by your theory. So imma fight ye!
As a very minor feature in addition to the selling points of the Crystalworks, it's created in a very modular configuration. It has multiple crystal lines and more can be added easily. These lines can be configured without difficulty to produce different products as we come up with new crystal-based designs.
I like to think that we have enough crystal expertise to make new crystal formation spells without much effort.
mundane aspects such as these conveyors
Ireally don't know the history of conveyors, but it sounds like something that may increase the difficulty. When not augmented by magic our mundane stuff is still middle-ages.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2211 on: May 10, 2017, 04:27:47 pm »

I was joking. Both sides have OP things.
Though some are easier to counter than others. *cough*luckystrike*cough* But in the end it usually mostly evens out and I'm (mostly) okay with that.



@Andres. Skirmishing is important and just dominating in one area of battles even more won't fix that. We need to pay attention to all stages of the battle.
Re: Crystalclad. Yes. That's my point. That's why we need things like Magegems then the Crystalworks first.
Re: Heaven beacon. Oh dear god. That is the very definition of a new field. We'd get so many
Penalties if we tried that.

@RAM: I will address that when I'm on my PC. Which is very soon.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2212 on: May 10, 2017, 04:34:54 pm »

@Andres. Skirmishing is important and just dominating in one area of battles even more won't fix that. We need to pay attention to all stages of the battle.
I know that skirmishing is important, but we are not suffering in that area of battles as much as in others. And again, frost towers kill entire armies regardless of stage of battle.

Re: Crystalclad. Yes. That's my point. That's why we need things like Magegems then the Crystalworks first.
Ah. I thought you meant to get those technologies by designing the Crystalclad. I greatly misunderstood and I agree with your conclusion.

Re: Heaven beacon. Oh dear god. That is the very definition of a new field. We'd get so many
Penalties if we tried that.
That...wasn't a serious suggestion for us to do. Roboson is rewarding based on how interesting a design is, not how sensible it is.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2213 on: May 10, 2017, 04:37:41 pm »

B/c I'm super bored today. Evicted, if this is not ok (as it depends on not confirmed information or is just not allowed), let me know and I'll delete this post.

Mini-game:
In the year 915 a great meteor crashed into Arstotzka and created the Foe Ax Crater. At the time our people took it as a sign of our inevitable victory against the evil Moskurg hoard. Years later, the wizard Roboson led an exploratory expedition into the crater. What he discovered was not a sign from the gods, but actually a gift. In the crater a small iron rich meteor was discovered with unusual properties.

There was little of the  strange celestial iron, only enough to make one unique object. Seeing a great opportunity here, he shared the information with his colleagues in an attempt to find the best use of this gift from above. Roboson offers one year of his votes to the person who creates a passing design that utilizes this celestial iron. (Redeemable by telling Roboson what to vote for).

Hmmm...this actually gives me an idea. 

And to clarify, your anti-magic gems absorb all magic in their range of effect very, very quickly, essentially creating a magical vaccum and dispensing of the energy as an annoying hum.  Your antimagic bomb arrows do not explode in this field.

You do not know how the Moskurgs anti-magic works, but it seems to be based on their religeous zeal.  Your antimagic bombs do not explode in their field, either.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 04:42:20 pm by evictedSaint »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2214 on: May 10, 2017, 04:39:33 pm »

I was going to write this whole thing breaking down RAM's Spell-forged Steamworks proposal and how it was extremely over-ambitious (definitely more-so than the HA1 - just look at the post yourself) and how its benefits were vague and kitchen sink-y
Please reconsider, I would like to know the specific points that are concerning so that I can address them specificall. So far all I have is "over-ambitious" which sounds sort of liek a good thing to me. We may have trouble getting it to work but it seems worth it. But if there are specific points of concern then I can try to refine the design...
Over-ambitious means we get heavy penalties to the whole thing and makes it much more likely for us to get an unusable design and impossible for us to get an actually good outcome.

river powers steam engines
I do not know how a river could power our steam-engines. They work because of magical heating. It could serve as a source of water but they are already very water-efficient. I think that mechanical heating would be a massive invetment in research.
Instead of wasting wizards to make exact shapes of crystal, we let machinery do it for us. ...
the crystal starts as raw "blobs" but its hardness, weight, shape, and more is refined and manipulated ...
The result is much cheaper crystal items and products.
I don't understand how this works. We can currently make crystals to specifiic shapes, the circuits used to summon the crystals should be able to do the same. Also, being crystals, they are somewhat reliabnt upon their internal structure. It is not entirely impossible that some form of compression would enhance their qualities of hardness or weight, and it is possible that the substance that they are composed of could be modified, but the question again arises, if we find that this is possible, why not change the summoning spells to create this new material. I have failed to understand how an assembly line helps when you can conjure a fully-formed object from thin-air.
Hence why it's in a new design. The crystalworks' whole thing is assembly line production of crystals to make them cheaper + better. That's the improvement. And yes, we can conjure them out of thin air, but that takes manpower and time. Doing the same with a circuit requires a much more complicated circuit and if it breaks, the whole thing has to be replaced. An assembly line is more efficient.
Also just the standard fluff hand-wave. If we had to make all our designs perfectly logical, this wouldn't be "Wands Race".

We've found that crystals are, in a way, "bound" to the summoning wizard. Being dispelled is likely breaking the connection to the wizard. So what if we made the crystals connected to themselves? Then the crystal is a solid object, now completely free of magic and immune to dispelling. The nature of the circuits used in the Crystalworks works great for this - the circuits can easily make "isolated" Crystal because the circuits are "isolated" themselves. No wizard is making this crystal.
The result is permanent crystals no longer tied to magic and therefore no longer dispelable.
This is very similar to what we have already done in binding the crystal objects to gems. I believe that the gem-bund axes that our thanes used were also dispelled, so binding them to the world didn't help. I can see that recursively binding them to themselves could give reality enough of a headache to just ignore them, but antimagic immunity? This makes them more magical, not less, unless I misunderstand. Is there some sort of magical quarantine effect that I missed that keeps their antimagic from reaching the circuits? Making them self-contained whould help if we had such a quarantine effect, but I would expect that we would prefer to extend it over our entire force if possible...

But mostly I have my own pet theory that hey are inherently opposed by reality because they came into being without replacing anything(like a house would replace a pile of bricks and lumber and nails and what-have you...) that would be invalidated by your theory. So imma fight ye!
The idea is that we make the crystals mundane. They go from "magical item sustained temporarily in reality by magic" to "mundane item initially created via magic". Mundane items can't be dispelled.


As a very minor feature in addition to the selling points of the Crystalworks, it's created in a very modular configuration. It has multiple crystal lines and more can be added easily. These lines can be configured without difficulty to produce different products as we come up with new crystal-based designs.
I like to think that we have enough crystal expertise to make new crystal formation spells without much effort.
Yeah. This aspect is just here to say "Crystalworks will also apply to new crystal-based stuff, not just existing things."

I really don't know the history of conveyors, but it sounds like something that may increase the difficulty. When not augmented by magic our mundane stuff is still middle-ages.
Conveyors are another almost entirely fluff piece. I'm positive they won't give us penalties. And if we get a mediocre Bugs roll, then sure, the conveyors may break down, but that's instead of something else.


@Andres again: Of course, we'll see with the combat phase what areas we need to improve on, but I'm fairly sure our new artillery will let us win in that area easily. Melee is something I think we've been slightly winning in, but skirmishing we're losing in (stupid firegrenades) and it's definitely hurting us.
Besides, the Flare's main point is easy battlefield communications. Lighting up areas for skirmishes is a bonus. If we didn't need a way to spot for the HA1, then I would definitely not be proposing it.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2215 on: May 10, 2017, 04:44:15 pm »

Besides, the Flare's main point is easy battlefield communications. Lighting up areas for skirmishes is a bonus. If we didn't need a way to spot for the HA1, then I would definitely not be proposing it.
We should keep this to a Revision at most. I see the value in it but to spend a full Design on it would be wasteful.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2216 on: May 10, 2017, 05:08:54 pm »

Quote
shaped ammunition

We have shaped ammunition?
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2217 on: May 10, 2017, 05:25:53 pm »

@Andres: Yup - I agree entirely. Lemme post the flare revision again just to keep it in people's minds.
Future Revision: Flare
One night, when a bored mage was staring at the theatre from the top of a Frost Tower, he noticed the bright fires all over the theatre located where the fighting was thanks to the fire bombs brilliant Arstotzkan fireballs.
So, he thought - why not use that?

The idea is simple: Use our fireballs for communication. The Streamlined Fireball is taken as the base, then instead of destructive power, our Mathemagicians tweak the Fireball spell to create massive amounts of light and to allow casting mages to choose the color. Now the Streamlined Fireball can be shot upwards into the sky, where it'll provide illumination on the ground below and signal other soldiers in the area. Certain colors can also be interpreted to mean different things - for example, red could be used to signal for artillery strikes, blue could be used to signal enemy troop locations, and the illumination provided by the flare will light up the ground below at night, making it easier for our men in skirmishes. Some have even theorized that strings of different colors could be used to send "encoded" messages across troops.

The extremely decrease destructive power of the Flare means it simply burns out before it can fall back to the ground.

How?
1.) Increase the brightness of the Streamlined Fireball at the expense of power. (While the flare is in a way a new spell, it's such a simple tweak (power -> brightness) that it should definitely be able to be done in a revision. )
2.) Add colors
Why?
1.) Artillery spotting. Flares can be used to signal for HA1 strikes at that destination.
2.) General battlefield communication - not extremely effective and not extremely secure, but it allows for basic communications.
3.) Skirmishing. We can create artificial light benefitting us during the night.


And @Ebbor: Our ammunition is in fact shaped, yes. I believe one of the HC1-E revisions gave our shells shapes similar to actual shells used by real life artillery. They're still stone, though, I think.
EDIT: Nope, not stone, as Evicted points out in his post after this one. We can craft stone ammunition on the field if the artillery piece runs out of ammo, but it's unreliable. I misread that line to take it as "the fact that we use stone ammo is bad".
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:23:08 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2218 on: May 10, 2017, 05:58:24 pm »

It's weird seeing you guys propose something that wouldn't intrinsically require a dozen negative modifiers.

And no, your shells are all iron.  Rock spheres were an intermediate cost-cutting measure.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:09:53 pm by evictedSaint »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2219 on: May 10, 2017, 06:21:14 pm »

What? not ambitious enough, you say? Well that's just not going to work at the Arstotzkan Academy.
Joke Revision: AS-HA2 "pls nerf"
Okay, having extra-LOS artillery is nice and all, but what if we went beyond that?
Introducing the AS-HA2, with what we now call "super-extreme extra-LOS" range. All our HA2's can be set up in the Taiga where they can fire literally anywhere onto the continent using EXTREME RIFLING as well as guided-fireball-propulsion.
The shells are extremely large and can fit the equivalent of 1,000 magegems inside creating a huge magical explosion that could annihilate a city.

Furthermore, as is reasonable to do in a design, we have developed an extra shell that we can put troops inside. Featuring leather seating and crystal seatbelts, we can launch our troops anywhere on the continent with no resistance! Oh yeah, and when the shell lands it turns into a tank thanks to putting a steam engine and historically-accurate tank treads on it. And another AS-HA2 on it.
And don't forget that each shell also counts as a flare.

This design is of course very simple, as all it involves is a couple of tweaks to the HA1 and some very minor research into extremely mobile tank treads. I'm aiming for Expensive here.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!
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