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[andrea]

fix? they aren't broken and we are not in a design or revision phase.

We should design new ships, especially if we conquer the jungle.

[10ebbor10]

Our soldiers are covered in plate mail. The bombs give minor lacerations to unarmored, and cancel magi

Read the actual description.

Hitting a mage with an arrow will likely result in death for the target

The minor lacerations are for bystanders, for indirect hits. A whole quiver exploding on your back will do more, probably kill you. Besides, IIRC, our mage killers are infiltration units, they probably won't use full plate. Not every soldier uses the armor.

In the rare scenario of one of our mages walking over an undetonated anti-magic bomb while casting a spell, the mage may get superficial injuries

Strawman. My worry is about this little fact, not the risk of an arrow lying around.

The entire quiver will explode suddenly and violently in the presence of any magic, including our own

Also, funny how you at one point argue that arrows will stop the Moskurgian retreat, and now argue they'll be harmless

The arrow only results in major injuries/death if a mage is shot with it. As it happens, we're not shooting our own mages with anti-magic bombs. Our problem is the shielded mages. This arrow helps significantly towards countering it. That is the point of this arrow. Not the minor lacerations to bystanders

Demonstrably false. The arrows explode on any kind of magic, not just hitting mages. Hitting a msge was an example, not the only situation where the arrow explodes.

The arrows won't help. All our mages can now cast massive fireballs, which do far more.

s long as our anti-mage units with the anti-magic bombs are kept away from magic-users, they'll be fine

It's hard to keep away from magic users when you're hunting them. The arrows are a massive liability thst's going to get our forces killed.

Even in the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY case of a quiver exploding, it shouldn't be lethal at all with full plate even with the full quiver.

The situstion is by no means extremely unlikely. It'll happen often, if not near constantly.

Moskurgian casts wind spell => Arrows exlode
Moskurgian cast aim assist => Arrows explode
Moskurgian cast lightning bold => Arrows explode

And counting on plate to protect our forces is not going to work. The GM explicitedly said it was a terrifying explosion. Do you really believe that he means "a bit of fireworks that wont hurt your troops".

[Chiefwaffles]

Not once did I say they would stop the Moskurgian retreat. I simply said they would help us during retreats. Walking over what essentially amounts to a mine tends to disrupt running away. Even if you just get very minor injuries, it helps.
You are massively overestimating the range of the anti-magic charms and bombs, by the way. Our anti-mage units aren't melee-based - they use ranged. Hence the anti-magic bomb arrows.

The design post for the anti-magic bombs explicitly says they'll help. I even bolded that part in my last post. Feel free to check again.
And if you want to say "well we have better fireballs!", that's not everything. Just because we have bigger fireballs doesn't magically delete every enemy mage - they're still going to be a problem that recently made themselves much tougher to kill by our anti-mage unit. Without the anti-magic bombs, which again explicitly state that they're effective against the shields, our anti-mage units won't be so much anti-mage anymore.

Hitting a mage with an arrow causes death because they get shot by an arrow, which then explodes. The getting shot thing is kind of the main contributor here. The explosion isn't the primary reason at all behind the major injuries of shot mages. Even if they decide to spend a design and a revision upgrading their wind spells, they won't be able to magically make our arrows reverse course and return to sender. Not a problem.


And remember the thing about our anti-magic charms doing things such as not stopping fireballs after they've been created?  Most effects of spells aren't explicitly magical by themselves - it's the conjuration of the effects that's magical, and the conjuration happens over where the conjuring mages are.
So quiver explosion only happens if:
A.) There is magic cast very close to the quiver-holder. This will not happen because our anti-mage units are not idiots. Again, they're ranged. They aren't at the front lines and don't have to be packed with the apprentices. The range of the anti-magic charms means that apprentices can still be very close if needed, too!
B.) There is a spell directly casted on the quiver-holder. Not a notable issue.

And "violent" =/= "lethal".

Oh, and regarding your point about anti-mage units and armor:

Anti-Mages:  Mage hunters equipped with longbows, anti-magic charms, and the best armor we can give them.  Excel at sniping enemy mages.

[Andres]

Sell our Wand of Fireballs and a crate of crystal weapons.

We cannot sell the original steam engine. Part of the problem with it was that it was too heavy for a ship to carry. It is also ugly, useless, and takes up a lot of storage space.

3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
3 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan
2 Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10, Azzuro
2 Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons and Wand of Fireballs: Andres

Glory to Arstotzka.

[evictedSaint]

I ask that you guys have a little faith that I understand how balancing works and understand that just because they're not nukes strapped to the ends of arrows doesn't mean they're useless.  They work almost exactly to the specifications I was given and will perform their function as reasonably as you can expect a freshly designed weapon to.

Perhaps you could wait until the combat phase is over and they've been used in field rather than preemtively declaring them useless.  I imagine a detailed combat report would give you a more accurate idea of their performance.

[Andres]

Don't worry too much about it, evictedSaint. It's traditional for players to get salty whenever a design is anything less than a working wanderwaffe. It's also traditional to get salty when a design is a working wanderwaffe, except the salt comes from the opposite team. For instance, when Moskurg got their magic recoilless rifle in Arms Race.

[Chiefwaffles]

@Andre's 2nd post: I just read through the Arms Race OOC thread. That was a lot of salt. I say Arstotzka needs to build a salt engine before something of that scale happens here!

@Andres sell action post: I mean, I'd guess that it could be a problem, but the weight-thing seems superficial - it's not really a reasonable block to selling it. Worst case scenario, evicted says we can't sell it and we go onto the next most-supported thing. Same for storage space.
As for "useless", I disagree in terms of for the expense as a working demonstration of it could wow the trader which is exactly what we want to do. The steam engine is unique - no doubt Moskurg is giving them some generic magic spells or obsolete wands as well, but they don't have the steam engine. And if they discover this one, which is unlikely, then worst case scenario is like I said, they have to waste tons of time getting it working - way more than us considering they don't have the fire spells to work it in the first place.

pls support sell original engine 2017
not a mistake
i guarantee

[Andres]

I am convinced.

3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
3 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan
2 Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10, Azzuro
2 Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons, original steam engine, and Wand of Fireballs: Andres

Glory to Arstotzka.

[Roboson]

I am convinced.

3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons: , 10ebbor10
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
4 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan, roboson
2 Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10, Azzuro
3 Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, roboson
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons, original steam engine, and Wand of Fireballs: Andres

Glory to Arstotzka.

Changing my vote to original engine.

[RAM]

Charms were explicitedly mentioned in the design. If they prevented explosions, they would have been used.

Antimagic bombs
 An oversized arrowhead made of quartz, composed of many facets of miniaturised antimagic crystal. It contains a core of explosive antimagic charm with spines extending outwards to draw the initial magic to itself. These need to be stored with a proper antimagic charm as they will explode after relatively little contact with active magic. The effect is that should they strike a hard surface, they will tend to scatter antimagic facets around the area. Should they strike a soft surface, they will explode relatively soon due to contact with ambient magic and scatter antimagic facets around the area. This will consume the magic in a large(compared to the charm's coverage) area making conventional spellcraft impossible for a short time before the tiny crystals become overloaded and burst into flame, creating an incendiary hazard. forcing enemy wizards to relocate during a heated battle can only be of benefit.
The bombs themselves are a very simple act of putting an antimagic charm on an arrow. The actual magic development here, of course, is the magically-stimulated growth of quartz into specific forms. Many mathemagicians died(Well, missed sleep and were called nerds) to bring us these plans.

Design: Antimagic Bombs [6, 4, 5]

Though our earlier incidents with exploding anti-magic charms was done with diamonds, it doesn't take much to modify our new quartz charms to also explode.  It's even easier to do, in fact, thanks to the lower quality of the material.  Once we have the spellwork down it's a simple matter of enchanting quartz crystals cut into the shapes of arrowheads to fashion our first anti-magic arrow.

As an extra bonus, we've managed to specify the crystal to reach peak temperature before shattering violently; the shrapnel does most of the damage to soft, unarmored tissue, but the super-heated crystal shards can start fires if they land in dry grass or soft fabrics.

Hitting a mage with an arrow will likely result in death for the target and minor lacerations for unarmored bystanders.  Unfortunately, the relatively low stopping power of a crystal shard means they wont be able to penetrate shields and armor once the arrow head explodes, but we've noted that if it explodes once shot into a wooden shield it will punch a small hole through it.  Sustained fire against shielded enemy mages will slowly reduce their cover so long as they cast.

Due to the complexity of crafting anti-magic charms and fashioning them into perfectly weighted arrows, they are Expensive and will be given exclusively to our Mage-Hunter squads.

A minor problem we've noticed; the arrow head doesn't discern between friendly magic and enemy magic.  The entire quiver will explode suddenly and violently in the presence of any magic, including our own.  As a precaution, our Mage Hunters will be kept as far away from our magical forces as possible.  Expensive.

Things not mentioned:
many facets of miniaturised antimagic crystal = the shrapnel does most of the damage to soft, unarmored tissue
Mundane shrapnel, no largish field of short-lived antimagic charms. I was expecting maybe a half-dozen metres, enough that the mage couldn't cast without moving or burning their surroundings while having a couple of spells fail. They are small, so their individual capacity would be low while the full charms have an almost limitless capacity but those only effectively cover one person, but they spread out. Duration lost to increase area.
need to be stored with a proper antimagic charm = Mage Hunters will be kept as far away from our magical forces as possible
They use the same technology, an Antimagic Charm should affect a larger radius than the core charm which should have a larger radius than the shrapnel charms. An antimagic charm really ought to absorb all the magic before it can reach the bombs. But results could vary...
strike a hard surface, they will tend to scatter antimagic facets = relatively low stopping power of a crystal shard means they wont be able to penetrate shields and armor once the arrow head explodes
Nor before either by my estimation. I mean, it is quartz! Fat chunky quartz with spikes out the sides at that, no bodkin to be seen... They were never meant to affect armour, only magic.
strike a soft surface, they will explode relatively soon = reach peak temperature before shattering violently
Wow, bonus, nice!
explode relatively soon due to contact with ambient magic and scatter antimagic facets around the area = into a wooden shield it will punch a small hole
Oh, well, holes are nice.
magically-stimulated growth of quartz into specific forms = crafting anti-magic charms and fashioning them into perfectly weighted arrows
I guess I was being too ambitious? I mean, we just barely have enough charms for our thanes or something and shooting them seems expensive. I guess I should have presented the quartz growing as a design to make existing items cheaper and the arrows as a revision?
need to be stored with a proper antimagic charm = A minor problem we've noticed; the arrow head doesn't discern between friendly magic and enemy magic
It is a good thing that we noticed that yes, the arrows will, indeed, blow up in the presence of magic. A good thing then that we have something that absorbs magic.

There is a lot of variation from the suggestion to the outcome. I am not really reading too much into anything that is not specifically mentioned. I assume that antimagic charms simply are not part of our hunters' current equipment so it wasn't factored in. We reposition the charms to our elitiest of the elite archers and rely upon them to keep the mind-0readers at bay.

I am optimistic that an antimagic charm which absorbs all the magic around a person will protect that person from magic that would cause the one or two bombs amongst the arrows in their quiver to explode. Obviously the enemy can do the same thing, but having to stop and antimagic the bomb in your face, then get someone to ferry it away, and likely clean up all the little ones scattered around the place, is, well, it is easier to just pick up your shield and walk away, meanwhile there are a bunch of people waiting to shoot you reposition, or, indeed, you can't stop fireballs like this so... Well, unless our charms stop fireballs, but, ehh, I figure those are like conjuration, magic enough to be unmade by the no-fun-zone the keggers use but mundane enough to work within the area of our charms so long as it is not actually being conjured within one. But still, an ordinary fireball should make the charms go boom, and the mage is busy keeping the charms calm so having them burst from cancelling one of our fireballs is still them at a disadvantage.

3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Seize ship: Azzuro, RAM
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: 10ebbor10, RAM
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
5 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan, roboson, RAM
2(-3=-1) Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10, Azzuro
3(-2=1) Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea,RAM
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons, original steam engine, and Wand of Fireballs: Andres
1 Use channelled fog where it is likely to be hit by antimagic. Inform us of the results. shamelssRAM
1 Use crystal weapons which are protected by antimagic: put some caltrops and an antimagic charm down someone's pants and put a crystal axe in one hand and a gem-powered crystal axe in the other then stick them in front of a firewall protecting our archers then wait for it to go poof and check what survived. shamelessRAM
1 Give antimagic charms to our elite anti-wizard guard or hunters or whatever they are now. Especially the ones who are carrying bombs. shamelessRAM

Fine, I'll throw my hat in for seizing and selling stuff. Plunder to Arstozkings!

[10ebbor10]

Don't worry too much about it, evictedSaint. It's traditional for players to get salty whenever a design is anything less than a working wanderwaffe. It's also traditional to get salty when a design is a working wanderwaffe, except the salt comes from the opposite team. For instance, when Moskurg got their magic recoilless rifle in Arms Race.

There's a difference between Wunderwaffe and being actually usefull. I'm asking for the latter, not the former.

Our current arrow is :
- Dangerous to ourselves
- Severely troubled by shields
- Severely troubled by armor
- Appears to have no actual magic disrupting abilities
- Capable of causing fire only in optimal situations

Basically, it seems to be a shitty fireball that explodes in your own face more often than not.

There is a lot of variation from the suggestion to the outcome. I am not really reading too much into anything that is not specifically mentioned. I assume that antimagic charms simply are not part of our hunters' current equipment so it wasn't factored in. We reposition the charms to our elitiest of the elite archers and rely upon them to keep the mind-0readers at bay.

Our hunters are equipped with charms. If charms protected, it woukd have been mentioned.

[Chiefwaffles]

 We'll see if anti-magic bombs are worth improving on after the battle report. As I said, there's a lot of potential in them - ignoring our own magic, as mines, fulfilling things RAM said like a lingering antimagic effect, and more.

Also, I somehow just realized, but if we get the expense credit, we should almost definitely use it on anti-magic charms. It really doesn't even seem like a question.

[10ebbor10]

Potential doesn't mean they're usefull now.

And sure, they can become awesome in the battle report, but that would mean the description was bad.

[10ebbor10]

Anyway, that's a moot point.

Let's go to another, more important point.

The Steam engine you are proposing to sell does not fit on boats

[stabbymcstabstab]

Considering that a merchant ship is going to be vastly larger then ours, as in they are ducking massive compared to regular warships/boats (I forget what we got exactly) he probably have less problem carrying it. Also he could disassemble it to make it a couple trips or just take the plans to make more.