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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 392807 times)

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3945 on: July 19, 2017, 06:18:12 pm »

Combat for 944

Arstotzka makes a thing this year, but it has a tendency to flip over and explode.  Despite the potential military applications of a giant exploding thing, they decide not to release it this year.  For their revision they improve their Aethergems, allowing them to recharge much, much faster.  This improves the rate of fire of their HA1-b "Mundane".  They hold back one of their Expense Credits and use the other to make Aethergems even cheaper, reducing the cost of their Mundane and R1 - which is now Expensive and Cheap respectively.

Moskurg has decided that More Flying Things Is Good and produce what they call "The Phoenix" - a giant flying flamethrower.  Essentially a giant tanker filled with Alnnar and powered by dozens of Adamantium War Pegasi Scrolls, it is hardy enough to withstand anything smaller than an HAC-1 at Medium Range and able to spew the oily substance on the poor men below.  It rolls with perfect Effectiveness and no Bugs, but some members of the Moskurg Design Team are still angry that it's not fast and can't fly very high or tank full-sized artillery shells.  Rather than fix any of those things however, Moskurg instead spend their revisions improving their Anti-Magic to be usable from their Skyskiffs and create a variant of their Firestorm grenades called "Fire and Thunder" - much less fire and much more boom.  For their Expense Credit they've decided to spend it wooing the traveling magician.



The Taiga, Arstotzkas Homeland, is the first to see the devastating power of the Phoenix this year.

Moskurg Skyskiffs, still virtually untouchable, run rampant over the skies this year - the same as they had last year.  The only difference is that the "gunner" can use their Anti-Magic Ivory Staves to stall the magic of the wizards below.  Their initial supply of new-and-improved grenades (now with brittle iron shells to throw shrapnel) is spent first.  All-in-all the new grenades don't do much that the old ones can't.  The shrapnel doesn't penetrate armor unless it's really close, and it doesn't leave flaming patches of hard-to-put-out fire.  Still, they're great against softer targets like horses or unarmored men.    Once their bomb stores run dry the Skyskiffs stop high in the air and blanket the ground below with their Anti-Magic fields.  Arstotzkan circuitry still isn't immune to anti-magic, so their cannons and guns can't fire.  This proves to be a horrific oversight.

Over the horizon, massive oblong Adamantium ships crawl towards Arstotzkan lines.  As they pass over Arstotzkan troops and defenses, the small turret on the bottom of the ship sprays those below with the contents of the tank above.  Unable to use their cannons, there's little Arstotzka can do but attempt to flee as a single bolt of lightning arcs from one of the ships above to the mess below.

Arstotzkas entire battle line goes up in flames.

The forests burn non-stop this year.

Moskurg gains a section of Taiga this year.  They've held the Jungle for a year, and may exploit it for the Jungle Wood.


The R1 proves to be more effective in the desert where more open lines of sight are available, and the melees that occur when Moskurg troops surprise Arstotzkan forces go almost entirely in Arstotzka's favor.  The R1 is never a soldiers only weapon, but the ability to quickly kill an enemy before switching to axe or broadsword is invaluable.  The 11 mm bullet punches through the thin leather-backed Adamantium armor that Moskurg soldiers wear, but one shot is all it's good for before the excess weight is dropped and the soldier goes for his main weapon.  The Protector is still suffering from poor locomotion and asphyxiation, but now they're also suffering from Anti-Magic from above completely shutting down the IDE engine inside.

Moskurg, meanwhile, has learned that they can't beat Arstotzka in a fair fight - either in artillery slug matches or man-to-man melee's.  They rely entirely on their airforce now, shutting down Arstotzkan magic and bombing men below.  With the advent of the Phoenix Arstotzka has learned to space their artillery out in huge, wide fields of deployment.  This makes it difficult to coordinate bracketing fire or protect one another from assaults, but on occasion a Moskurg Skyskiff will fail to shut down an artillery piece as the Phoenix comes in for the killing blow.  The explosions are breathe-taking, and anyone within a half-mile of the crash usually doesn't walk away from it, but these lucky strikes are few and in between.  Even without the Phoenix, naval superiority, or al-Mutriqa (who has taken a liking to standing on the bow of the giant fire-breathing Adamantium balloon), Moskurg could probably have pushed their Arstotzkan intruders back this year anyways.

Moskurg regains a control of the Desert.


With Moskurg forces tied up fighting in the desert, they are unable to push north to fight in the Plains or Mountains.  No battle occurs there this year, but things look grim for the defenders this coming year.

Arstotzka continues to hold the Mountains and Plains.


Neither side really does much this year that drastically changes the war on the oceans.  Skyskiffs are still the weapon of choice for Moskurg, and Crystalclads are still what Arstotzka relies on for their naval power.  With nothing really changing, Moskurg gains full control of the seas to the East and West of Forenia this year.

Moskurg gains a section of shoreline in both the Eastern and Western Seas and now has full control of both.


!!DESIGN CREDIT!!

Both sides attempt to woo the fabulous Saint this year.

Arstotzka starts off with their magical technology; demonstrating the feats of magic they're capable of producing without a mage at all!  The Saint is quite impressed - he admits that some of the feats they've performed are difficult for even him to perform.  He does a flourish and immediately pulls a string of handkerchiefs out of his mouth that goes on for an inordinate amount of time before ending in a pair of pantaloons.  Everyone applauds despite their confusion.  Next they give him a Restless train of his own; a large, blocky hunk of crystal confined to Arstotzka's limited railway system.  He's less impressed, but still accepts the gift and then pulls a bouquet of flowers out of thin air and hands them to a bystander. 

Moskurg tries to put on a bit of fanfare, showing off their magical prowess in a fantastic show that mimics many of the feats they've seen him perform.  He seems...less than enthused, muttering about "originality" and how they were "riffing off his talent", but his annoyance turns to awe when Moskurg pulls back the curtains to reveal the treasure seized from the merchant last year.  The Saint vanishes in a puff of smoke, only to reappear on top of the pile of gold with a deck of cards.  He successfully discerns which card a nearby child pulls from the deck and asks everyone to check their pockets, as they've all gained the same card magically - the Ace of Spades.  With a bit of a flourish, the Saint doffs his top hat, does a bow, and then does his most amazing trick yet - vanishing without a trace with every last coin on stage.  Though they search far and wide, it seems the Saint has disappeared from the island altogether with nary a credit left behind.

Neither side gains the Design Credit.


Espionage Credit!!!

After a bit of finger-snapping interrogation, it seems the trader is from the far-off land of China.  He admits to buying the boat from the former trader after his last trade run, intending to take his place and make his fortune selling magical artifacts from Forenia.  Unfortunately, his intentions were less-than-pure; had he managed to gain something of value from your nation, he would have gone to your enemy and attempted to sell your secrets for a massive profit.

Fortunately, this gives us a unique opportunity to use his skilled crew to further our own gains.  Loyal to a fault, they agree to perform an Espionage Credit for us if we release their captain and return their ship.  If we agree to these terms, we must honor our word and release the trader captain once their work is done.  Of course, we could just execute them all and be done with the mess...they're not exactly trust-worthy, after all.


It is 945, the Design Phase.

Spoiler: State of Forenia, 945 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)



Behavior Rules.  Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3946 on: July 19, 2017, 06:26:17 pm »

This turn we

A.) Sink another design into the F43

and

B.) use the revision on either anti magic hardened circuits or penetrator shells to kill the sky skiffs. 
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3947 on: July 19, 2017, 06:38:37 pm »

We definitely need the anti-magic resistance revision.
Hopefully the ASAF should help with the sky skiffs.

Design: ASAF-F44 "Avenger"
The KPD is a good start, but is lacking. That is why the main focus in this design is the KPD Mk. 2, an incremental improvement of its predecessor. The rest of the F44 is an incremental but serious improvement to the F43. The F43 was a prototype - a proof of concept. The F44 is the real deal.

Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)

Generally speaking, the F44 is intended to be similar to the F43 in aspects not mentioned below.
KPD Mark 2 - "Fix" the KPD to be like how it was envisioned - "pushing" the craft via direct and precise applications of kinetic energy, allowing UFO-like movement of equal (+fast) speed in any direction. Intended side-effect is that this is much more energy efficient because of the precise usage of energy instead of wasting it in unfocused explosions like the F43.
Ball Turret/20mm Upgrade - Upgrade the ball turret to have mechanical controls from the inside and to house a 20mm gun based off of the AS-HAC-1 for armor piercing while retaining high muzzle velocity.
Reactor - Due to KPD Mk. 2's efficiency and our AGem revision, we can greatly reduce the number of Aethergems to the foint where they can fit in a crystal chamber between the cockpit and turret, roughly the size of the cockpit. All Aethergems are stored here and the armor is a bit thicker than the cockpit. The Reactor should use whatever AGem size is best for power to size/mass - sizes A through AAA are fine to use.
Structure - Very roughly like an arrowhead. Cockpit at front connected to the Reactor connected to the Ball Turret. This is just aesthetics.

Difficulty - This should actually be on the easier end of designs. Whereas the F43 was a venture into completely new territory, the F44 is simply building off of what we learned with the F43 to make a new, competent craft.
Expense - The F43 is expensive and we're not really adding any expense. We're using Expensive Aethergems instead of Cheap AAAethergems, but as it's just Expensive it shouldn't give us any penalties/threaten to raise it to Very Expensive. If anything, it should be cheaper as the extreme amount of AAAethergems should probably be pretty expense. In short, the F43 is expensive and the F44 isn't doing anything that should make it anything more than just Expensive as well.

TL;DR: A refined version of the F44 with the primary focus on improving the KPD to be much more graceful - with the UFO-like kinetic "pushing" originally envisioned instead of the crude energy-wasting explosions beneath the craft. Speed, stability, agility, and energy efficiency should all go way up. Make the ball turret better, switch to (faster-regenerating) Aethergems + use greater efficiency to greatly reduce Aethergem count then put it in an armored "Reactor". If time left, make tin can telephone wired Linkgems (see their tl;dr section) for communicating between cockpit+turret.

TL;DR TL;DR: F43 was a proof of concept, now make an actual aircraft building on what we learned last turn.


Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F44: Chiefwaffles
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 12:50:21 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Light forger

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3948 on: July 19, 2017, 07:10:01 pm »

Vigilant Sky Cutter
The Vigilant is the second Arstotzka attempt to enter the air war. The craft is slightly smaller then a fishing boat and is made completely out of crystal. It's lifted into the air by the new created "aurora generator" which creates a brightly colored gas that seems to repel itself from the ground even when compressed however, it dissipates. The generator feeds two tanks located on either side of the craft to provide lift. Importantly while the generator itself is still weak to Moskurg's anti-magic the gas doesn't fade meaning the craft can safely float down even when affected. The craft is moved by a slightly smaller version of the protector's engine fitted with a large propeller and is located in a cabin in the back of the vessel. The cabin is completely covered protecting the crew, engine and generator from lighting and ballistae bolts. It's partly powered by a box full of aethergems in the cabin which are able to power either the engine or the generator. The front of the craft has a HA1 with a gunner and a loader mounted on it;s normal turret mount. This provides a stable platform to snipe Moskurg's aircraft. It can also carry crates of blastshells and addition crew if the aurora generator proves powerful enough.

Reason to go with the vigilant:
  • Won't fall out the sky like an exploding brick if hit with anti-magic
  • Further designs can use our powerful artillery
  • Likely to work with a lower roll
  • Useful in the long run if revised as a transport craft

Quote from: Designs
1 - ASAF-F44: Chiefwaffles
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter: Lightforger
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 07:11:42 pm by Light forger »
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3949 on: July 19, 2017, 07:19:36 pm »

What, exactly, makes antimagic-resistance look like a revision? Last time we got it as a major part of a full design that got a 6 on effectiveness. And that was for keeping a crystals inside an antimagic field, which we could already do when it was our own antimagic fields. If we leave antimagic to a revision then we are taking a major risk that we will get nothing. Unless The G.M. kind of hates antimagic in general?

Anyway...

Mage-Slayers
Having looked long and hard into how, precisely, our crystals were expelled by the Kegger no-fun-zone when our own magical-devourers had no effect, it has become apparent that there is an active, magical component to their antimagic. All that we need to do is attune our antimagic charms to consume this mutated variation of magic and we can effectively counter it. But, given that our antimagic charms can draw magic into themselves, it seems evident that we can instead have them draw themselves into the magic! All we need to do is armour and sharpen such a thing and hurl it at the enemy and it will promptly fly into the Kegger mage from which the antimagic field is being generated, making a nice hole in them.

Once that preliminary stage is performed, we hope to produce variants that are attuned to weather magic, such as storms, which we can test on frost towers, and force-magic, such as wind, which we can test on force-balls. So long as we keep them properly separated from magic using antimagic charms, they should remain inert until they are ready to be used. Given that they will seek out targets by their own means, it should be possible to mount a small, detaching antimagic charm onto our cannon projectiles that will not have the range to affect the firing chamber and will fall off, either by being pulled off by a tassel or being ripped off using a rope affixed to an anchor prior to launching. Or we could just release them when they are within a magical antimagic field to seek out the source under their own power...
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3950 on: July 19, 2017, 07:26:23 pm »

Ugh.

1.) You have no idea if we needed a 6 for the anti-magic-resistant crystal. Remember how we got that whole "-1 expense level for all crystal designs"? That was what the 6 did for us.

2.) The revision is simple. We take our Resistive crystal then we revise it to resist against magic, instead of electricity. Now magic can't "leak out" from circuits. Bam. Magegems+Aethergems are already immune to anti-magic, so we don't need to bother with that.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3951 on: July 19, 2017, 07:56:54 pm »

It was a 6, on a design, that solely affected crystals. You want it from a 1, on a revision, to affect everything. Is it possible that we could get it from a revision? Based on current evidence I cannot say with certainty, but maybe, on a great roll, if we don't mind some things slipping through the cracks and not functioning, like our infernal desperation engine just randomly being ignored like our crystals were randomly ignored by our own antimagic. I do, however, have an extreme lack of confidence in the 'let's just completely negate their entire field of antimagic that they spent multiple designs on by just making a vague "it doesn't go through my antimagic-proof shield" revision' plan. Could you perhaps cite an example of such a revision working?

Magic is not "leaking out" of circuits. If their antmiagic worked like that then it would not have done anything to our crystals in the first place, as they were already immune to "leaking out" into our own suction-based antimagic. We do not know how pervasive their antimagic is, but it visibly worked like a cloud. If you wand completely-sealed circuits then maybe they can block all of the antimagic, but a coating thick enough to stop antimagic would likely have detrimental effects on the size of a circuits, and the extra thickness would likely require a massive overhaul of our existing circuitry to make it fit into existing designs made around smaller circuitry.

Magic is not electricity. Reattuning between magical elements is tricky enough, reattuning from mundane to magic is bound to be worse. Impossible? No, but as a revision? Pushing it, pushing it a lot...

The crystals in our batteries are immune to being dispelled. That does not mean that the energy or their operation is immune to being dispelled. I would be rather disturbed if their antimagic caused our batteries to vanish. If, however, they stopped working? That seems extremely plausible.

I just vfeel a little nervous about making a design that requires a dubious revision in order to function... ... ... ...
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Kadzar

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3952 on: July 20, 2017, 12:55:45 am »

I'm going to have to echo RAM's sentiment. I don't see us having enough precedence for anything like antimagic shielding to roll it out as just a revision, and frankly I think it's reckless to leave it as a revision even if it would work.

Right now, Moskurg can just nullify the entirety of our our magitech and our spell-casting with their staffs, and there's nothing we can do about it. Even supposing we get the skyship off the ground and it isn't brought down by antimagic, I'm not so sure it will be enough to take down the airships on its own. Also, there's no guarantee that we'd be able to apply antimagic shielding to more than one thing with a revision, since, as far as I know, there isn't precedent for doing so except in cases involving upgrading already existing tech, which this would not be.

And, finally, I'm not so sure having a workable aircraft requires more than a revision. Sure, it may not have all the fancy bells and whistles you'd like, but the main thing our current prototype needs at the moment to be usable is a more efficient engine. Doing it as a design might, in fact, be to our detriment, since we rolled rather decently for the F43 other than for Effectiveness, and, as per Iituem's explanations of the rolls, "As a general rule, Revision phases let you try and fix one of the three earlier rolls," in which case Effectiveness would apply. So trying to make a design based on the f43 could lead to something that works, but has more bugs or is more expensive, whereas simply doing a revision will either lead to a better product or fail entirely, which we don't need to waste a design doing.

Therefore, I propose:

Design: Antimagic Shielding
Moskurg Antimagic has been a thorn in our side for a long time, but now it's become unbearable. That's why our designers have devised a new type of crystal which protects our magic from antimagical interference. It works much like the mythical "Faraday Cage" of Arstotzkan legend, blocking out harmful Moskurg antimagic particles so that those inside are free to cast as much as they like. There's no guarantee that spells cast inside the shielding will be protected once they leave the barrier, but our mundane projectiles should at least still work perfectly fine, and our Protectors should now only be stopped by their faulty suspension.

Quote from: Designs
1 - ASAF-F44: Chiefwaffles
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter: Lightforger
1 - Antimagic Shielding: Kadzar
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3953 on: July 20, 2017, 01:12:56 am »

I think it's stretching it to base your actions on a "general rule" from Iituem. That was 4 months ago with a different GM, and precedent determines something different.

Revisions aren't really just rerolling one roll of a design. They're fixing or improving an aspect of an existing design (sometimes making a variant of an existing design/tech/etc.). If the 1 in effectiveness manifested in a single issue ("it's super super slow") then we could fix it to "adequate" in a revision, but the F43 doesn't have a single issue.

For example, we can't just say "reroll the F43's effectiveness." If the F43 had a single problem, then sure. But it doesn't. Here are some of the F43's issues preventing it from being useful:
  • Its massive amount of AAAethergems mean it's extremely vulnerable - a single shot (which Moskurg is really good at it) to the biggest target on the F43 means the whole thing explodes.
  • The ball turret has to be manually aimed (to track very fast-moving targets with a breech-loading cannon) and used an AS-HAC-1, which is too low caliber to pierce Moskurg's armor at anything other than Short range, which is impractical for aerial combat. "Precise aiming is difficult" was a line in the F43 design report. Which means the F43 would be extremely ineffectual against their small fast-moving armored ships.
  • The F43 propels itself via a cushion of blastball explosives underneath it, making it extremely unagile and generally impossible to fly. Even if we improved this, it would still fly like a convoluted hovercraft/helicopter. Not something good for dogfighting.
  • The F43 is still heavy. While the Aethergem revision helps greatly, its weight will mean it'll be slow in the skies even if we get it flying at all.
  • "Until the serious control, stability, propulsion, and thrust-to-weight issues are solved, the F43 is unusable and little more than a frightening proof-of-concept.  "

These problems can be fixed in a design, but they all have to be fixed to make the F43 anywhere near usable. And it's way out of scope for revisions. And even if we could do all this in a revision, it wouldn't be done well. It could be made able to fly, but not useful.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

andrea

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3954 on: July 20, 2017, 01:31:38 am »

Also i believe that Es said we were very close to have am proof circuits, but can't verify at the moment

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3955 on: July 20, 2017, 01:33:01 am »

Yeah, I was actually trying to search for a quote from him regarding that but it's hard given the different ways of saying "anti-magic", how common the word "circuits" is, etc.,

But I'm almost certain I've heard evicted state that our circuits are already close to being anti-magic resistant and our gems already are immune.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3956 on: July 20, 2017, 02:48:22 am »

A vague recollection is not comforting. EvictedSaint has an established rule of not saying exactly how a revision or design will turn out. We just got done with the last round of "Chiefwaffles thinks that evictedSaint said that we would upgrade our aethergems from smaller batteries to larger batteries with an expense credit(and that doing so would be a good thing), but it turns out that that is not what happened at all and they were actually reduced in price, just as RAM said they would be, even though there were no rolls involved" which I wasn't going to bring up but is relevant because it kind of frowns on how well people are at reading the situation.

 The absolute impossibility of getting antimagic at all in a revision is a bit strong, especially with recent events, specifically what appears for all the world like them being able to protect their own stuff from their own antimagic as a revision, but that was probably a revision of antimagic to change its shape, rather than a revision of every piece of their magical technology to be immune to it... I would be hesitant to say that we can get antimagic to a single item, like the aircraft, which will be completely useless regardless without it, but to get our entire army working with a revision I just can't see happening. I could be wrong, I have been before, but it feels really really off and nobody else seems particularly good at reading these things. Also, the design is literally useless without it. Chiefwaffles themselves said that designing to need a revision was generally bad practice, and that was with fairly reliable revisions.

Much as I dislike the idea of a flying machine in general, as we would be better off denying them the battlefield that they are so specialised in rather than trying to compete directly against their strongest point, and feel that the latest flying machines suffer from much the same flaws that the previous one did, such as pointless upscaling of a weapon(why not downgscale if the HAC-1 is "not our most advanced cannon" and we actually have experience with that) and a complete failure to prioritise the one thing that has the slightest chance of making it stable enough to shoot from or to fly or to survive five minutes of without a fatal concussion and thus with another bad roll(or even average) is the difference between completely useless and mostly useless. I do not recall it ever being said that we even got any experience with the force film that the design cannot live without, so there is no compelling reason that the same rolls would get a different outcome.

As for the other one? I am not really clear on how it works, or how we are supposed to know how to do that. Is it based upon fog? Some sort of buoyant fog that is solid enough to push up off of? Kind of like a snowmobile that rides on temporary immovable snow that is really pretty? It does sound better when I put it like that. I mean, they can still dispel our fog, so useless without antimagic resistance, but a temporary immovable physical structure would presumably give us a very great deal of wind resistance. As opposed to the force film that needs to constantly move against the wind in addition to whatever else it wants to do.

Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds
We take the wasp spell, and refine it down to its basic parts, and isolate the part that grants the wasps their agency.
We take the hawk taming spell, and identify what it is to control a mind.
We we wield mathemagics to our conjuration to take these elements and bind them to the most fundamental of active magics, to imbue upon them a will, and to guide it into a thing of purpose.
The result is a rather simple thing. A completely immaterial cloud that is trained to live off of a stack of power gems. It remains as such, ever persisting and remaining sensitive to any attacks against it. Its response to such attacks is violent, well, the magical equivalent of violence. It attempts to rip, devour, wrestle, repulse, disperse, or all manner of other things against any sample of antimagic that it is exposed to. The specifics of the 'battle' are somewhat difficult to describe. Somewhat akin to competitive singing with spiked balls attempting to match patterns against other patters, either for incompatibility or excess compatibility, or any number of- well, difficult to explain... It is feared that this would work somewhat poorly against our own antimagic, given that it is a physical device that absorbs magic, the most successful of the spells at opposing them have relied on quarantine or attempting to overload the antimagic charms with extremely intense bursts, but it seems that it should be able to convert the Kegger antimagic into a contest of magical input, which we should always win given our magic generation capacity, and which we should have a keen advantage in given that the spells learn and adapt to perform better, can be guided by a mage stationed at their power source(who can also contribute magic to the battle using the usual methods of transference to our batteries), and are specifically designed and trained towards such battles.

Overall we are hoping for a five to one ratio of power that we have to contribute compared to how much they would need to contribute in order to match us. These spells should tear theirs apart with a relatively small compliment of minders.


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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3957 on: July 20, 2017, 03:01:21 am »

Also, the design is literally useless without it. Chiefwaffles themselves said that designing to need a revision was generally bad practice, and that was with fairly reliable revisions.
All our designs are literally useless without it. And a design uses dice just like a revision. In fact, a design has more points of failure because it could end up very buggy or very expensive. Ultimately, we have to address anti-magic.
If anti-magic was something that only affected aircraft, then I may had agreed with you. But it doesn't.


and feel that the latest flying machines suffer from much the same flaws that the previous one did, such as pointless upscaling of a weapon
Not pointless.
The AS-HAC-1 cannot pierce Moskurg vehicle armor at anything other than short range. That is very bad. That is why we're upscaling the AS-HAC-1 by a relatively minor amount. I have made this clear, but you ignored it.


(why not downgscale if the HAC-1 is "not our most advanced cannon" and we actually have experience with that)
I don't believe I have ever said that. Searching the phrase "most advanced" in this topic yields nothing from me talking about anything even remotely related to the AS-HAC-1.
I also have no idea what you're even trying to say here. So; moving on.


and a complete failure to prioritise the one thing that has the slightest chance of making it stable enough to shoot from or to fly or to survive five minutes of without a fatal concussion and thus with another bad roll(or even average)
And would you mind telling the class what exactly this mystical "one thing" is?


is the difference between completely useless and mostly useless. I do not recall it ever being said that we even got any experience with the force film that the design cannot live without, so there is no compelling reason that the same rolls would get a different outcome.
...said RAM, after apparently somehow purging his memories of all of Wands Race up to this point.

Because it's pretty clear based on literally every single action we've ever done since the start of the game that yes RAM, experience in designs does, in fact, matter.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3958 on: July 20, 2017, 04:52:18 am »

and a complete failure to prioritise the one thing that has the slightest chance of making it stable enough to shoot from or to fly or to survive five minutes of without a fatal concussion and thus with another bad roll(or even average)
And would you mind telling the class what exactly this mystical "one thing" is?
I am going to pretend for a moment that you are actually asking a question and trying to improve your design. The "one thing" is the propulsion. It doesn't work in antimagic, so we need to be certain we sort that out first, but if you want to have a credible design, after so clearly failing to get exactly the same thing last time, and not actually getting any confirmed bonuses to the rolls. State clearly that nothing else matters if you don't get the propulsion. This much is obviously true, you were all too happy to state that the propulsion would let us get flying armour in a revision when you made no efforts at all to guarantee the propulsion would actually happen last time and are making exactly the same mistake twice in a row.

Also, the design is literally useless without it. Chiefwaffles themselves said that designing to need a revision was generally bad practice, and that was with fairly reliable revisions.
All our designs are literally useless without it. And a design uses dice just like a revision. In fact, a design has more points of failure because it could end up very buggy or very expensive. Ultimately, we have to address anti-magic.
If anti-magic was something that only affected aircraft, then I may had agreed with you. But it doesn't.
Okay this is all sorts of confusing... Firstly, please be clear. Are you saying that if you have to do something, something small(we disagree on whether antiantimagic is a small task, so I am assuming that you mean small tasks here), then it is more likely to achieve a satisfactory result by being performed as a revision than as a design? That is the only way that I can make sense of your "points of failure" bit having any relevance to anything. ?I mean, you might of been factoring in the associated costs, but if you did then, well, that really REALLY REALLY doesn't seem like the implication that you were making. So seriously, please clarify exactly what you meant to imply with the whole bit with comparing designs and revisions, because otherwise I am going to have to assume that it translates to "Revisions are more likely to satisfy identical objectives than designs are" which seems like a silly statement even if you are being very specific about which projects it applies to.

And what does only affecting aircraft have to do with whether or not you agree with the statement? I really don't see any connection there. Unless you mean that a revision is more likely to succeed if it applies to all of our technology rather than just aircraft? Or your design affects more than just aircraft? Or, uh? Seriously, how does any part of that statement make any sense? It is addressed to me so I feel compelled to try to figure it out but I am not seeing any plausible interpretations.


and feel that the latest flying machines suffer from much the same flaws that the previous one did, such as pointless upscaling of a weapon
Not pointless.
The AS-HAC-1 cannot pierce Moskurg vehicle armor at anything other than short range. That is very bad. That is why we're upscaling the AS-HAC-1 by a relatively minor amount. I have made this clear, but you ignored it.
"Skyskiff"... Adamantium canoe ... armor is thick enough to prevent HAC-1 penetration at medium range
"The Phoenix" ... hardy enough to withstand anything smaller than an HAC-1 at Medium Range ...not fast and can't fly very high
The Skyskiff is a canoe, presumably that means open top, I am not familiar with many canoes that have rigid coverings on the top and none with as much as they do on the bottom. The Phoenix is vulnerable at medium range. The whole point of an aircraft is that it can get above and can get close. If it can't then there is no value to putting our guns on janky little unstable things that cost The Earth when they could just as easily be put on the ground. If the flying machine cannot get into close range then that is very bad. The upscaling is almost 50%, I find it extremely unlikely that you will find any quotes of 50% being "relatively minor" from any remotely credible sources that are aware of the proportions. So please specify exactly what it is that the flying machine cannot pierce at medium range. The open-top canoe that it can't shoot down at or the flying explosion the can be pierced at medium range? Or am I missing something? I am happy to apologise if there is, in fact, something that it cannot penetrate at medium range. Or is it possible that you will admit to being wrong about the range at which we can penetrate?

(why not downgscale if the HAC-1 is "not our most advanced cannon" and we actually have experience with that)
I don't believe I have ever said that. Searching the phrase "most advanced" in this topic yields nothing from me talking about anything even remotely related to the AS-HAC-1.
I also have no idea what you're even trying to say here. So; moving on.[/quote]
I apologise, I hoped that you would remember what you had said and I could afford to be lazy and not look up the precise terminology.
How exactly is the AS-HAC-1 our most complicated cannon? The only thing it does unique is fire a much smaller caliber than the HC1-E.
It was actually "most complex" rather than "most advanced". I was wrong, and I honestly apologise for the brief lapse in accuracy of my statements. Now can we go back to sanity for a moment and state precisely why we are trying to make our autocannon-equivalent larger instead of making our field-gun-equivalent smaller? We have already done the latter once, we have never done the former. If the calibre is the only difference then why do something new?

P.S.
 I searched for "calibre".

I am not crazy about Antimagic shielding. It only applies to things that we can put in cages. Now, hopefully, that applies to the internals of our guns, and to our armour, so basically everything, but it still leaves me with concerns that it might be difficult to put it on a gun casing and could leave weapons exposed. But that was mostly my initial concern and has largely cleared up upon realising that individual guns can have it in addition to whole vehicles. Really just saying this because it worried me for ages before I noticed my error, so please just ignore this whole bit unless there is some compelling reason to worry. Still, it does seem rather unambitious. It is just a shell that has little other utility that I can think of nor progression towards other fields. I like to think that we will be needing a living spell to get our flying machine to remain stable when it is trying to stay upright by applying even pressure in the midst of a squall, but that will probably just be ignored, still magnificently useful thing to develop though. So, basically, I think that we can do better, but it would, at least, get the job done.

Quote from: Designs
1 - ASAF-F44: Chiefwaffles
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter: Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
2 - Antimagic Shielding: Kadzar, RAM
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM
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I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
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Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3959 on: July 20, 2017, 05:27:15 am »

Chiefwaffles, I like your F44 design, but there's something preventing me from voting for it: the linkgems. It's a new kind of technology and one being developed for a critical design. I don't care how simple you think it is, it is not worth even the chance of it making the design more difficult. We need as many bonuses as we can get. If you want communication between the two, use a pipe or something.

the potential military applications of a giant exploding thing
Huh. You know, the F43 would make a great base for the ammunition for a supercannon. With the Expense Credit we could make quite a few of them to boot. Something for later.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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All fanfics are heresy, each and every one, especially the shipping ones. Those are by far the worst.
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