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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 392923 times)

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3885 on: July 15, 2017, 07:46:42 pm »

Quote
Revisions:
2 - Better Aethergems: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 Gemerators: RAM
1 invisible crystals: RAM
1 - Penetrator rounds (whenever someone posts an appropriate revision for them): Helmacon
lots Weightite Works: RAM, RAM, RAM, RAM, eggs, and RAM.
2 - Aethergem Array: Andres, Chiefwaffles

Orders:
2 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon
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helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3886 on: July 15, 2017, 07:52:46 pm »

@CW
you said better aether gems would make it smaller (true) less volatile (false) and allow for armor (false). It would make it smaller. Everything else would require separate actions. Making it smaller dosent actualy do anything. It still can't fly more than a few meters. The aether gem exploded when it bumped the ground. The thing caused a chain reaction. Even if you did get a slight reduction in explosiveness, a ballista bolt (or any intentional weapon) would definitely still set it off.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3887 on: July 15, 2017, 07:59:45 pm »

RAM:

1.) We can't remove the storage capacity effectively because the Aethergems act just as I was planning - as capacitors. The KPD works by cycling through Aethergem banks. As one section of Aethergem charges, it uses up the charge of another section at once to generate the blasts needed, then repeats until finished. If we remove the storage capacity, then this won't work.

2.) Because an Aethergem is bigger than a Magegem. Though I should had used the word "roughly" there. The AAA Magegem should be smaller than an AAA Aethergem as it doesn't need the components the Aethergem uses to generate power.

Helmacon:
Smaller and lighter. Less Aethergems means less weight. The entire craft is practically made out of Aethergems. Remember that a new AA Magegem is worth 2 old A Magegems.
That's a huge improvement. And on a 4.

So if we get even double the effectiveness in our Aethergems then that's practically cutting the weight and size of the F43 in half.
That's a huge reduction in weight. Huge. More than enough to easily allow flying.

And hopefully we can include more armor as a result of the decreased weight, though I am doubtful. However, we should be able to keep the remaining Aethergems in more secure locations.

And
Quote
Even if you did get a slight reduction in explosiveness, a ballista bolt (or any intentional weapon) would definitely still set it off.
[citation needed]
(This is completely dependent on the roll and any reduction in volatility would work well.)


And see what I already said in response to you answering your exact question regarding retrofitting. I am basing this off of precedence.
When we upgraded Magegems, we got automatic retrofitting in both the AS-R1 and the Blastshells.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3888 on: July 15, 2017, 08:02:36 pm »

Look I wanted rifle wielding falcon riders, but you go with what you got.

Oh hey or-

Explodo-falcons

A small harness attached to a normal falcon containing a fireball "wand" and a few aethergems.  The falcons are trained to dive bomb enemy aircraft and then move a switch with their leg which activates the fireball and sets off the aethergems.  The result is an explosion as powerful as a cannon ball blast easily targeted directly on the enemy by suicidal falcons.

Kadzar

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3889 on: July 15, 2017, 08:26:29 pm »

I have doubts about being able to make the F43 viable with a single revision, but better Aethergems should help with many of our existing technologies.
Quote
Revisions:
3 - Better Aethergems: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar
1 Gemerators: RAM
1 invisible crystals: RAM
1 - Penetrator rounds (whenever someone posts an appropriate revision for them): Helmacon
lots Weightite Works: RAM, RAM, RAM, RAM, eggs, and RAM.
2 - Aethergem Array: Andres, Chiefwaffles

Orders:
3 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar
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helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3890 on: July 15, 2017, 08:47:17 pm »

We lost last turn. If we deploy nothing new this turn, we will lose again. No matter how good an aether gem revision rolls, it will not make the fighter deployable (or useful.
Penetrators (or weightite) will at least help us kill thier stuff from last turn. Other than that, we just hope they rolled 1's as well.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3891 on: July 15, 2017, 09:20:25 pm »

It will make the Mundane not-useless.

Also we have two expense credits. The revision isn't the only thing we can do this turn.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3892 on: July 15, 2017, 09:22:10 pm »

Aethergems are significantly larger than magems. Especially the smaller ones. As far as I can tell, they actually use the same generator component on all of the aethergems, just with different magems on them. Point being, there is good evidence to suggest that if you just saw an AAA agem in half you will get a generator and a battery of roughly the same size. Sticking a whole lot of generators onto a battery will get something huge. Unless magems are actually tiny?

Calling Aethergems capacitors is misguided. We have capacitors. They are called mage gems. They do just fine in that role. Capacitors do not produce energy, they just store it. We also have generators, the aethergems, which are doing rather poorly because they are trying, badly, to replace our capacitors while being our only generators. As is plainly obvious, the only aethergems that are worth anything are the smallest one, because we can use magems and AAAthgems better for any task that would use AAthgems. When using Aethergems, the only thing that we care about is generation ability, because storage capacity can always be made up with magems. In modern devices, you have generators and capacitors, and the two are separate. You can have a big generator and a little capacitor bank or a little capacitor bank and a large generator bank. It depends upon whether you want a frequent use(powerful generator) or occasional use(weak generator) and whether you want strenuous applications(large capacity) or weak applications(small capacity). Unless we just stumble blindly into the perfect ratio for a given application, an aethergem is going to have a very poor capacitor to generator ratio. That is just the only outcome of having your ratios fixed like that. We currently have capacitors and generator/capacitor hybrids that really don't come out working as either particularly well. I get that you really want your all-in-one does-everything universal-power-unit but that is, quite simply, a bad way of doing things. Adding some magems and switching the bulk of it over to gemerators would be as simple as any of the other proposals and produce a purely superior outcome. You are basically trying to make my gemerators except instead of explaining how this can actually make a better system and trying to improve the generation facilities in the process, you are just saying that, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, if you just shrink the capacity down to the point that it ceases to be credible, the aethergems suddenly become capable of being absolutely tiny with exactly the same power output, as though, perhaps, as I have been saying all along(although we disagree as to whether the zero capacity aethergems would really be that small), binding them to a capacitor is holding them back from their full potential, but then you go and ruin it by, surprisingly enough, binding it to a capacitor.

Separating generators from capacitors is the only sensible way forward if we pursue this technology. The silly way forward is to have some sort of nebulous adjustable capacitor to generator ratio device that does whatever is asked of it because magic. The stupid way forward is to perpetually insist that we must have fixed ratios of capacitors stuck onto all of our generators. We just get a separate capcitor bank which we have had for ages, plug it into the new generator bank that can be attuned to precisely the generation potential that we require for the given role, and not try to turn them into the same thing is a tiny range of fixed models that don;t really work exactly right for anything ever.

So, in short, we replace the storage facility with magems, which I already specified in my proposal. And because my system is objectively superior, we only need two capacitor banks instead of four, unless there is a limit to how quickly they can charge that I have missed/forgotten? So just be separating them sensibly we cut out half of our magems, presumably reducing the volume by about a quarter.

I also suggest that we will not, in fact, get AAAthgem->atharray upgrades automatically. I cite that we did not get magem->aethergem upgrades on account of the dimensions changing, and suggest that the array is, at the very least, going to have a different shape to it, even if it impossibly retains the same size.

Gemerators: Separate the generator from the capacitor and increase the generation ability, then take the obvious and seemingly simple steps to update those applications that seem to be easy to update.

Aethergem Array: separate the generator from the capacitor then put a whole lot of generators onto one capacitor. Then use these to replace the old model because they are exactly the same size with vastly improved performance even though all we did was change what they were plugged into.
Important notes that were omitted:
: That the "generating" component of the aethergem is actually getting smaller as the capacitor/battery component gets smaller even though they all generate at exactly the same rate(citation?) and that we can continue to benefit from what is, obviously, a purely beneficial effect of reducing until it is no longer a capacitor at all, down to effectively zero capacity even though we have, thus far, only managed to go as for as the AAA version which is presumably, a long long away away from practically nothing at all.
: That all of the effort will be applied to maintaining compatibility with the existing array. If sacrifices have to be made, then efficiency can bite the bullet and all sacrifices must be made for 1st: must fit into the old physical slot because we don't want to burn another revision on this; 2nd: must maintain enough capacity for the aeroplane's engines to fly; 3rd, must have greater generation because without that there is no point.

The array is objectively inferior. It makes no stated effort to improve performance, it just assumes that the reader will get the point and understand that the process of a generator plugged into a smaller battery generates at the same rate will continue endlessly. AND that the generator components are actually different, at all, across the different sizes, and it is not just the capacitor components which are larger or smaller. It is entirely possible that the effect which is relied upon doesn't actually exist. But that doesn't matter because it is not specified, it just has an inspired piece of stage magician work of sawing an aethergem in half and gluing a dozen of one half back onto one of the other half and the result is exactly the same size as the original.

Ugh, the fundamental problem is that the aethergem makes no effort to explain how it works, or even that it does work, and assumes that it will be useful even though the prior aethergem which was largely the same level of disaster was not useful because surprisingly enough when you add and remove stuff you get a different size and shape.

The gemerator and the array work in exactly the same way. They both reduce the storage capacity to nothing. The difference is that the gemerator makes some attempt to improve performance and explains how to adapt to the new technology while the array insists on bulking everything back together in the latest episode of "we are not allowed to have independent generators for some reason".
If the array stopped at just "make an array of these the same size as an aethergem but 100% generator. Then the two designs would be very nearly identical, aside from the array not actually explaining the crucial part of why it could possibly work and making it apparent that the foundation of the theory is a bit wonky at best.

It is the vultures all over again. I put up a decent design, then it is overshadowed by an objectively inferior knockoff. I admit that most of the time designs have their own flavour, "objectively superior" is not generally applicable, but falcons were more ambition and less effective than vultures, and the aethergem array is less founded and provides inferior performance when compared to the gemerator, but both birds were birds and both generators are generators, just one is better than the other, and was proposed first, and lost the vote, because the real magic isn't in the wands... I have no objection to being outdone in the same field by something that looks to have been based upon my idea, it is just irritating when it is straight-up worse and still gets more votes.

But yes, what we really need is pretty much anything other than an aeroplane that can't hope to fight against their air power. It was once said that we shouldn't do wind magic when they are already better at it than us. Clearly that was false, but doing air-forces when they completely control not just the airspace, but the whole world up there, is not terribly wise.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3893 on: July 15, 2017, 09:34:26 pm »

Creating generators is not the best way forward. It is a viable way forward, but not the best. Aethergems are envisioned as and are close to being the universal power supply. So we don't have to have complicated systems of capacitors and generators. We can simply put a slot in all our designs for an Aethergem. Put an Aethergem in and it'll immediately work.

The power capacity component of Aethergems is hardly a limiting factor, really. Not everything is a zero-sum game. It's better to get better Aethergems also able to store power rather than sacrificing capacity for power storage but then cutting down the number of Aethergems used for Magegems.


Ultimately, it'll come out to the same thing. Except using dedicated generators is an unnecessary complication only thought necessary due to the unnecessary connection to real-world technology.
We don't need a dedicated generator and a dedicated battery system. We have Aethergems. We don't need to restrict ourselves to real-world rules for no reason other than the fact that the rules may be a little more familiar.

Let's make something that isn't just a mindless copy of real-world tech except replacing the word "electricity" with "magic". Let's make something that takes advantage of Wands Race's rules and our knowledge, not the rules of the real-world which was abandoned as soon as Wands Race started.

Quote
And because my system is objectively superior,
Oh, this argumentation tactic.
No, RAM, using the word "objectively" when describing your opinion doesn't suddenly make your opinion objective. You'd have to actually prove it first.
Which you have not.

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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3894 on: July 15, 2017, 09:43:12 pm »

I will vote for aethergem arrays or gemerators, only way the things will be useful later.

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3895 on: July 15, 2017, 10:00:17 pm »

guys... we need to do generators at some point, yes. But this is literally the worst possible time time to start doing so. We need something we can field for this turn. Neither of those will make the F43 or mundane very useful.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3896 on: July 15, 2017, 10:05:30 pm »

Again.

1.) The F43 cannot fly because of weight. That's it. This weight comes from its extreme amount of Aethergems. Increasing Aethergem charge rate will fix it.
2.) We have two Expense Credits. We can do a lot with two expense credits. Things that'll help us during this combat phase.
For example, Evicted said that if we use an Expense credit on Magegems or Aethergems, we'll even get a new VE gem that would be NE without the credit. Or we could use it on the Academy again. (Though we'd have to think of a different expense-related bonus for the Academy). Or anything else. Like the AS-R1.
3.) Mundane is quite useless for sure, but better Aethergems will make a Mundane go from "extremely useless piece of junk" to "marginally useful artillery."

Though I do wonder if we'd get a capacity bonus on Aethergems if we used the credit on Magegems. I'm assuming it would since the Aethergem is basically just extra stuff put ontop of a Magegem of equivalent expense. So having cheaper Magegems would mean we can use the better version in Aethergems.
And if this is true, then using an Expense credit on Magegems means the Mundane goes to Expensive, which would actually make its use of some note.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3897 on: July 15, 2017, 10:10:42 pm »

Dont expense credits just last a single turn?
If not, we ought to use one to open a new branch of the university and the other on the mage gems. (would that make our cheap mage gems free?)

Also, even if the F43 could fly, it's still not useful.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3898 on: July 15, 2017, 10:27:14 pm »

No, Expense Credits last forever in Wands Race.

I asked Evicted about Magegems and he'd said that we'd basically get a new tier of VE Magegems better than the A Magegems. And as one would expect, the AA and A Magegems go down in price to Cheap and Expensive respectively.

And the F43 is still an aircraft. It can go above enemy airships and aircraft and shoot them down with its turret. The AS-HAC-1 can easily snipe the unprotected crew on Moskurger skiffs+carpets+airships and at close range even penetrate the armor. The bombs will be great against the slow-moving airships and enemy positions.
And it's just Expensive.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3899 on: July 15, 2017, 10:30:36 pm »

Revision: F1 Flying RowboatCrystal Falcon

A rather simple revision of the F43 which removes all the aethergems and cannons in exchange for a few mage gems attached around the central propulsion mechanism.  The overall design is smaller and much lighter, made of of crystal and seats two wizards who power the thing and can also fire rifles, bows or spells out of windows protected by sliding hatches.
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