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[10ebbor10]

Frostball seems like something that would fail spectacularly because of overcomplexity, and more importantly, it does not address any of our issues.

Unlike Moskurgians, we do not have the accuracy to snipe incoming rounds out of the air. So, that won't work.

In addition, a fire extinguisher that ends with an explosion, is a very shitty fire extinguisher

Third, because it is based on fireballs, it does not have the range to hit the enemy, hence it too will be useless in that regard.

So, you made something that is thrice useless.

[Azzuro]

For what it's worth, I actually think how we were described as doing it this round seems like a good route to try. Blanket the battlefield with fog, rely on outside spotters to call back targets. We could venture into scrying spells to extend this further (yes I know it's a new field of magic). Can't hit targets when you don't even know if they're there or not, after all.

Also,

pls vote fog-o-war for 939 design phase.
pls pls pls.

[andrea]

Designs
2 - Frostball: RAM, Chiefwaffles
1 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10
2 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: RAM
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
0 - antiluck charm(RAM)
0 - Anti-Projectile Ammunition

Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles (Link to full proposal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939 )
3 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro
1 - The viking way: RAM

fog o war it is then!

[Roboson]

Frostball seems like something that would fail spectacularly because of overcomplexity, and more importantly, it does not address any of our issues.

Unlike Moskurgians, we do not have the accuracy to snipe incoming rounds out of the air. So, that won't work.

In addition, a fire extinguisher that ends with an explosion, is a very shitty fire extinguisher

Third, because it is based on fireballs, it does not have the range to hit the enemy, hence it too will be useless in that regard.

So, you made something that is thrice useless.

Not even a little bit constructive. Not cool 10ebbor10, not cool. This is a safe place to pitch ideas.  There is no need to be so harsh towards teammembers, especially as often as you are.

[Chiefwaffles]

I just want to counter Lucky Strike.

Just gonna leave that here. This is still my number one want, above the fire issue. The fire bomb issue is amplified by Lucky Strike. So Countering Lucky Strike is in my eyes more important than countering the fire bombs, though countering both at once would be preferable.

The Frostball is primarily meant to be used as a kind of flak spell (though as some have pointed out there are admittedly simpler ways to do flak) in addition to an extinguisher and finally being useful in combat, but combat isn't its main purpose.
How do you extinguish fires with it? Fire it at a slight angle upwards from the ground towards but not at the thing you want to extinguish. The frostball will fly past it, extinguish it, then go on somewhere else and explode.

But for now, I'm going to switch my vote yet again to the Fog-O-War. Regaining control of the sea and offshore artillery would both help a lot. That and doing it now will let us focus on just land for a bit. Again, though, I still want to counter lucky strike more.
Also I still think it should be called the SPB1-A "Fog-O-War". The name is still basically Fog-O-War, but it's easier to type SPB1 (and SPB1-A) and I'm sure this won't be the only boat we ever design. Also, it's an Arstotzkan tradition!

Designs
1 - Frostball: RAM
1 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10
3 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro, Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: RAM
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
0 - antiluck charm(RAM)
0 - Anti-Projectile Ammunition

Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles (Link to full proposal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939 )
3 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro
1 - The viking way: RAM

Also, idea for future design: Flak Shells. They may only be effective with the higher fire rate of the HC2, though. Magical point defense when?

[Roboson]

I can't remember, does the fog of war fix the steam engine? I can't remember what exactly the proposal was.

Found it.

[10ebbor10]

Frostball seems like something that would fail spectacularly because of overcomplexity, and more importantly, it does not address any of our issues.

Unlike Moskurgians, we do not have the accuracy to snipe incoming rounds out of the air. So, that won't work.

In addition, a fire extinguisher that ends with an explosion, is a very shitty fire extinguisher

Third, because it is based on fireballs, it does not have the range to hit the enemy, hence it too will be useless in that regard.

So, you made something that is thrice useless.

Not even a little bit constructive. Not cool 10ebbor10, not cool. This is a safe place to pitch ideas.  There is no need to be so harsh towards teammembers, especially as often as you are.

It was a frank assessment of the design's capabilities. A fire extinguisher that blows up what you're trying to extinguish can be described in no other words than useless.

That said, :

1. Don't be salty! If at any time you find yourself having an urge to mouth off at another player, step away from the keyboard, go outside, and take a breath. Seriously. Players who repeatedly get angry or passive aggressive will be asked to leave. If you have an issue with the way the game is being run, DO NOT expect a tantrum to get you what you want.

I have been repeatedly called names, insulted, and other things just because I did not want to agree with the majority opinion, even though in several cases my opinion has later been shown valid. You're more polite about it, but it's getting old, so stop it.

Try to argue about the design, not the man. That is what that rule entails.

[Chiefwaffles]

Design: Fog-O-War
The final refinement of our prototype steam-powered ship is to supply the water intake via a Channelled Fog spell, thus eliminating the problem of salt building up in the pipes and increasing the efficiency as pure water boils at a lower temperature than seawater. Using the freezing spell-powered steam condenser from the HC2, the steam produced is not vented but is reused, thus helping to solve the problem of the drive belt slipping due to wetness. HC1-E steam hybrid cannons provide its firepower, allowing it to shell land and sea targets alike from extreme range. The new ship is thus named the Arstotzkan Fog-O-War, and with its speed and range advantage both, will help us rule the waves in the Western Sea.

OR: The SPB1-A "Fog-O-War".

And it's known via word of god that thanks to accumulated knowledge mentioned in the design, we won't get a penalty in designing it.

[andrea]

I will pitch in in ebbor's support this time and say that, as long as criticism is applied to a design and is not overly aggressive and persistent, Pointing out faults of a design is still useful even if you don't provide alternatives. Other people may see those flaws and make proposals to fix them.

by the way, we really really need new ammo. I'll start proposing, if you don't mind. although we may prefer to work on expense this turn... but my idea may help with both.

Crystal multipurpose shells a set of shells for our cannons. they are composed of an outer shell and a filling. the filling can be anything from a full shell slightly smaller than the barrel, to several segments of shell, to metal scraps and pebbles, to fluids like fire wasp venom. They don't need to be accurately manufactured , since they are encased in an outer shell, made of crystal. This shell holds everything together and is made form fitting to the cannon easily, thanks to our control of crystals.
Should it encounter enemy antimagic fields, crystal will dissolve spreading its contents over enemy forces. Should it not be dispelled it will impact, breaking the casing and , depending on the filling, still spread shrapnel or fire venom in the immediate area.

[Chiefwaffles]

We 100% need to work on expense this turn without a single doubt.

[andrea]

it could be argued that projectiles able to hit a larger area would be as effective as more projectiles when it comes to shutting down enemy ballistae. However, we need to fix that expense problem anyway. I think that applying some crystal magic to the inside barrel should work for reducing expense, since shaping crystal to be rifled should be easier and more accurate.


as for protection from lucky charms... if the steam engine is improved and includes the frost spell, I am going to propose a crazy idea next turn.

steam tank. it is a cart, fully covered by thick wood without leaving any openings except a (closeable) window for the muzzle of the cannon. To protect it from moskurg greek fire, the entire shell is covered by frost spells similar to that of the cannon barrel, meaning that it will pull out the heat from the fire as it hits. It will be propelled by a steam engine.

Surprisingly, assuming we get a good roll here it will all be existing tech.

[Roboson]

1. Don't be salty! If at any time you find yourself having an urge to mouth off at another player, step away from the keyboard, go outside, and take a breath. Seriously. Players who repeatedly get angry or passive aggressive will be asked to leave. If you have an issue with the way the game is being run, DO NOT expect a tantrum to get you what you want.

I have been repeatedly called names, insulted, and other things just because I did not want to agree with the majority opinion, even though in several cases my opinion has later been shown valid. You're more polite about it, but it's getting old, so stop it.

Try to argue about the design, not the man. That is what that rule entails.

I have no issues about critiquing ideas. Really my qualms lie with the way its done. It's not about how ideas differ or don't differ, or who was right or wrong. And it has nothing to do with agreeing with the majority position. It's about the way in which we go about doing those things. Long lists of arguments about how someone's idea is shit is overkill and detract from the game by creating a hostile atmosphere. Its entirely possible to critique an idea in a positive and constructive way. That's all I ask, just a bit less aggression in the critiques. I agree with your critiques, they're valid and reasonable, but the delivery could be nicer. Which I don't think is too much to ask and probably already falls within Rule 1.

Ok, said my peace. That is all for me. Take it to heart or don't.

[Chiefwaffles]

Future Design Idea: Detect Essence.
Our work in anti-magic charms has proven that magic exists around Arstotzkians in the air. Is it not a logical conclusion that wizards, if not everyone, have a magical "signature"? By applying what we've learned about "ambient magic" in our work thus far, we can create a spell allowing our mages to "sense" magical presences both in and out of their line of sights. This can be used to find Moskurgians hiding like cowards or those too far away to see regularly. The spell isn't "sight", but rather just sensing - the casting mage senses others.
This can be used to spot for artillery, to detect Moskurgian ambushes in skirmishes, and more!
Furthermore, as our anti-magic charms absorb local magic as they should, forces covered by anti-magic charms won't be seen under this spell and thus confusing forces with enemies is a rare occurrence. Of course, there are numerous Arstotzkian soldiers not under the effects of anti-magic charms in the battlefield. Which is why casting mages tend to focus on finding the exact locations of enemies where only their rough location is known. If infantry is clashing in a battle, Detect Essence is rarely used. However, in scenarios such as eliminating enemy ballistae and ranged troops, Detect Essence can be a vital tool.
If it's very expensive, users of Detect Essence will be accompanied by couriers and messengers that run the mage's instructions to nearby artillery emplacements. If it's just Expensive, then the mages of every cannon are trained to use it.
Another possible solution for the sight issue if we ever get around to upgrading our cannons' sights further.

@Andrea: The steam tank could work, though I question the use of wooden armor when the enemy is fielding extremely strong ballistae. Why bother fielding a tank if the enemies' weapons will just ignore its armor? We should rather use iron armor if we visit that idea. And regarding expense, we really just need to standardize production, as the problem with the HCx-E variants is that their barrels must be specially crafted for each one. We don't have to resort to dispel-able crystals to get it working.

[andrea]

I don't think dispellable crystals are that much of a problem, since if we get inside spell range the cannon stops working anyway. better production is also a good idea, but crystal allows easy replacement of barrels as well.

about wood, good point. I was thinking about thick enough wood to sustain a few ballista hits, but if that is unfeasible we probably should go metal. We will want the mountains for that however.

[10ebbor10]

Anyway, this discussion reminded me about something else.

Design: Antimagic Bombs [6, 4, 5]

Though our earlier incidents with exploding anti-magic charms was done with diamonds, it doesn't take much to modify our new quartz charms to also explode.  It's even easier to do, in fact, thanks to the lower quality of the material.  Once we have the spellwork down it's a simple matter of enchanting quartz crystals cut into the shapes of arrowheads to fashion our first anti-magic arrow.

As an extra bonus, we've managed to specify the crystal to reach peak temperature before shattering violently; the shrapnel does most of the damage to soft, unarmored tissue, but the super-heated crystal shards can start fires if they land in dry grass or soft fabrics.

Hitting a mage with an arrow will likely result in death for the target and minor lacerations for unarmored bystanders.  Unfortunately, the relatively low stopping power of a crystal shard means they wont be able to penetrate shields and armor once the arrow head explodes, but we've noted that if it explodes once shot into a wooden shield it will punch a small hole through it.  Sustained fire against shielded enemy mages will slowly reduce their cover so long as they cast.

Due to the complexity of crafting anti-magic charms and fashioning them into perfectly weighted arrows, they are Expensive and will be given exclusively to our Mage-Hunter squads.

A minor problem we've noticed; the arrow head doesn't discern between friendly magic and enemy magic.  The entire quiver will explode suddenly and violently in the presence of any magic, including our own.  As a precaution, our Mage Hunters will be kept as far away from our magical forces as possible.  Expensive.

This was supposedly a 6 design too. Haven't seen too much of it, but maybe it could be used now.