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[NUKE9.13]

I sleep now, also, feel free to refer to me as SMMI as lowercased "some idiot" can be confusing.

Heh heh heh heh heh. Fine.

Hey, if it's simple and it works, well... why aren't we doing it?

Serious answer: Because the GM needs to come up with an explanation for how we make the spell work better. We can save them a bit of work by suggesting a method ourselves. ((And by being helpful to the GM, they will be more inclined to be generous towards us))

Issue 1: What to revise: Presented to make sure that we are all on board with such.
A: Improved Detect Thoughts: SMMI, NUKE9.13, S34N1C, crazyabe, Kashyyk, Sosoku234, ATHATH (Pretty much everyone)
B: Something Else:

Issue 2: Method of IDT Revision: Unless a major upset happens, this is the next topic
A: Zen Mind, introduces a Mind Stilling Effect to make the mind bouncing usable. Potentially noticeable: NUKE9.13, Kashyyk, crazyabe, Sosoku234 (4)
B: Ritual Casting, introduces More Magic Users to handle the Mind Overlap to make the mind bouncing usable. Will almost certainly increase expense: SMMI, S34N1C, ATHATH (3)
C: 'A Filter', super boring and generic: Taricus (1)

Issue 3: Orders: A specific vote on if we want to do any Orders this turn, if Yea then a follow up vote on what Orders to do will be had.
A: Yes: ATHATH
B: No: SMMI, NUKE9.13

In other words, we can all agree on improving IDT. There's some debate as to the method. If we can't agree, we should just go with C (the boring option) and let the GM decide on how we improve it.
There is no conclusion regarding the Order 'Selective Intelligence Usage', which could be used to vastly decrease the chance of Arstotzka figuring out we have mind-reading again, albeit at the risk of limiting the effectiveness of said mind-reading.


E: Incidentally, reading back over the combat report for 918, specifically the jungle section- it seems like the Arstotzkans are developing weather control of their own. The tower they built was probably related to the cold weather that year. I mean, obviously it didn't save them, but we should bear that in mind before they plunge Forenia into a new ice age. I guess it is currently a National Effort- which explains why destroying the tower led to no frost this year- but they could revise it to be cheaper.

E2: In fact, whilst I'm at it, what we know about Arstotzka's efforts so far:

911: ? ? ? Something about commoners giving orders to noblemen?
912: Fireballs, the bane of our existence.
913: ? ? ? Snipers and bodyguards? Possibly (but probably not) storm magic?
914: ? ? ? No indication of them doing anything.
915: Plate armour! Also, Firewalls. They mentioned in the core thread that plate armour involved several revisions, so presumably they designed it in an earlier year and revised it to work this year.
916: Exploding Fireballs and Magic Lances
917: Frost Tower?
918: Magical caltrops? Apprentices spouting mist.

Clearly after messing around for the first few years they started to get their act together. Hopefully they go back to their roots soon.

By the way, evictedSaint: I noticed whilst reading back through the updates that you did 917 twice- it should currently be 919, not 918.

[Kashyyk]

If it is indeed magical caltrops they've developed,  rather than tangle weed or something,  is there anything we can do to counter it? Would horseshoes be enough?

[Sosoku234]

Double the horseshoes.

[evictedSaint]

Double the horseshoes.

Why stop there?

[evictedSaint]

Revision: Improved Detect Thoughts - Zen Inception [3]

Surpessing someone's thoughts to quiet the line turns out to be rather tricky.  In tests with our own troops, a willing participant can have his mind quietened enough to hear further down the line.  A non-passive individual clouds the line with his own thoughts, and an actively aggressive individual can shut the line down entirely by thinking loudly enough.

To circumvent this, our mages have developed a process they refer to as "Inception."  By quietly planting false questions like "Who am I? Why am I here? What is the meaning of life?" we can gradually work an enemy in the relay down to a passive "zen-like" state.  This process requires a mage to work each link in the relay down to a passive state before going on to the next one, and each link can be disrupted by outside interference. As a result this technique can't be used in pitch battle, but does work quite effectively at night against unsuspecting guards - either to open a route for an ambush, or to open a relay to a commander behind the lines.  There is a small amount of static build up the more relays you add, but for our purposes it doesn't become an issue.

[NUKE9.13]

Hmm. Well, knowing their grand designs should be good enough. And since we aren't inducing zen on people in the middle of a battle, the Arstotzkans are less likely to notice something is amiss.

[Taricus]

Hmm... That zen implantation has uses on our side too. Would certainly be able to stop routs if possible.

[evictedSaint]

The mountains see another half-hearted poke from our Theatre Commander.  It seems futile; our men march up hill over rocky terrain, withstand arrow fire the entire way, and then are expected to break down the gates of the fortress sitting at the peak.  Skirmishes fail here; there's simply too many factors working against us.

There is dissent talk among our men - they are frustrated with trying to take back the mountains, and sick of losing so many with each failed push.

Arstotzka maintains control of the Mountains.

At least the plains are secure, as they'd been last year, and the year before, and the year before.  Their men march forth in steel suits of armor, only for our calvary to crash into their lines with devastating effect.  Even better, the Detect Thoughts spell works exactly as intended.  Our men creep up in the pitch dark to where their men stand guard and slowly work their way into their minds, hopping further and further into the camp until they're reading the battle plans for the next day straight from their commanders mind.  As it turns out the Arstotzkans have developed a new spell called "crystal caltrops", which they surround their camps with at night to prevent raids.  This explains why our horses fall with such alarming frequency.  Sadly, being so close means our men are discovered before too long and chased off, but more often than not they have the plans for the next day already tucked away.  The plains are as one-sided as the mountains, and our men laugh at the ease at which we drive Arstotzkan invaders away.

Moskurg maintains control of the plains.

The fighting in the jungle has slowly started to progress in our favor once again.  The caltrops are difficult to spot at night, and our men are wary of skirmishing the enemy troops, but the few times we manage to successfully get close our mages return with our opponents battle plans.  The battles during the day go much better than the skirmishes do.  The enemy has given their officers new crystal axes with long, square handles, which they swing about like feathers.  It's brutal, but by using the weather and our superior bows we keep them at range when we can.  We push the enemy back bit by bit, until they're hanging onto the very edge of the jungle.  Compound bows, storms, and bolts of lightning are hell in the dense foliage - and without Myark to make up the difference, they can only just hang on.  Another year like this and they'll be pushed back out entirely.  Fancy axes are great, but they don't do enough.  We run out of steam just before we can push them back into the north, but our men are confident we can run the scum out if the next year goes just as well as it did this year.

Arstotzka captures several of our men during one of their night raids, but they lose many more during the day.  Trades and chivalry see both sides replenished to full strength.

Neither side gains ground in the jungle.

Myark, curiously absent from the jungle, makes an appearance from the bow of an enemy ship in the West.  His magical prowess is legendary, and he's a match for the mages we have aboard our own ships.  The seas are fought to a stalemate, and both sides lose a fleet in the bloody fighting.

Neither side makes coastal gains this year.

Things look great - we came close to claiming the jungle this year.  Had we committed more to the jungle, Arstotzka would be building barricades on their home soil this year.  Eager for the war to finally reach its conclusion, the Sultan has offered to dip into his private treasury to give us an extra Expense Credit this year.


It is 920, the Design Phase.

Spoiler: State of Forenia, 920 (click to show/hide)

Northern Taiga: 4/4 Arstotzka
Central Mountains: 4/4 Arstotzka
Western Jungle: 1/4 Arstotzka, 3/4 Moskurg
Eastern Plains: 4/4 Moskurg
Southern Desert: 4/4 Moskurg

Northern Sea: Arstotzkan
Western Sea: Disputed
Eastern Sea: Disputed
Southern Sea: Moskurger

Spoiler: Moskurger Equipment (click to show/hide)

Mundane Equipment

Sabre:  Officer weapon.  A single-edged blade that favours cavalry combat over infantry combat.  Requires training to wield, one-handed.  Expensive.
Spear:  General infantry weapon.  Essentially a dagger on a long stick.  Very cheap, requires minimal training to use.  Can be used double-handed, or single handed with a light shield.  Cheap.
Buckler:  General infantry equipment.  A small iron shield, held in one hand.  Only protects a small area, but can be wielded alongside a shield.  Moderate cost, requires training to wield properly.
Padded Armour:  General infantry armour.  Very cheap, just layers of cloth, but doesn't protect against much.  Well ventilated in hot conditions, though.  Cheap.
   Scale Mail:  Officer armour.  Scales of steel on a leather backing.  Expensive, but lighter than chain mail.  Expensive.
Recurve Bow:  General infantry weapon.  A light bow composed of laminated wood and horn, curved backwards to provide more force.  Inexpensive enough to equip many troops with, with very reasonable medium range and power.  Can be wielded by horse archers.  Tendency to break limbs when strung.
Arabian Horse:  A light riding horse, from short-lived Iberian settlers in the past.  Very fast and maneuverable, but not too strong.  Expensive.
Horse Breeding Program:  Mass amounts of horses available.  Tend to do poorly in the desert, and aren't quite as high quality as the Arabian Horses. Cheap.
Lances:[/i]  Essentially a heavily upgraded spear.  Has a tendency to splinter after the first use.  Cheap.
Sailing Ship:  Wind-propelled wooden ship.  Fast, requires minimal crew, cannot carry many passengers, but does carry at least one wizard - so long as they don't make puns.  Very Expensive.

Magical Equipment

Wand of Heroism:  Makes a squad fight beyond human levels.  A National Effort.

Spoiler: Moskurger Spells (click to show/hide)

Detect Ambush:  Reveals non-magical ambushes prepared by enemy troops or physical traps.
Lucky Strike:  Magical guidance makes a squad shoot or strike true far more often than usual.  Expensive.
Detect Thoughts:  Read the mind of an enemy commander to determine their tactics ahead of time.  Expensive.
  Zen Inception:  By putting enemy soldiers in a zen-like state, we can use their minds as a relay system to read minds further away.  The spell is easy to disrupt, but simple to use.
Teletalk:  Short-ranged psychic communication between mystics.  Enough beacons can be produced to outfit an army.  Expensive.

Gust of Wind:  Evokes physical force to create a heavy gust of wind, sufficient to disperse fog and most minor concealment, as well as disperse irritating swarms.  Expensive.

Cyclone Shield:  Protects the beneficent from most arrows and some blows with a sheath of wind.  Expensive.
Storm Strike:  Summons heavy rain and winds over the course of a day.  Very Expensive.
  Clear Weather:  Negates inclement weather within the given area.  Nests within Storm Strike for protection.
  Hammer of Allah:  Induce lightning from summoned storms.  Strikes indiscriminately, so can't be used in "danger close" situations.
  Spear of Allah:  Call down an individual bolt of lightning to target enemy commanders.  Difficult to control, has a tendency to hit the caster as often as not.  Our mages refuse to use it.

[evictedSaint]

Note: I made a mistake when assigning cost to IDT:ZI.  It should be Expensive, not Normal cost.  I fixed that, and I hope you'll forgive me for nerfing the spell a bit.

[somemildmanneredidiot]

Interesting move in their part, upgrading equipment like that. I expect them to get Crystal Arrows and possibly Crystal Fortifications soon enough. Maybe Crystal Boats. If that happens, a Thunder/Sonic based combat spell will counter them hilariously well.

I'm going to recommend Terramancy again, as causing successes in the Mountains may startle them and it'll help in the Jungle as well. Goal would be Basic Movement of Dirt and Stone set at Expensive cost, as this is a new area and something that we don't need everyone doing. Plus it'll be useful for road/infrastructure building and sabotage if we're able to maneuver well enough.

Unless we glitch the Terramancy, we should then revise the ISoA so it's of use.

Note: I made a mistake when assigning cost to IDT:ZI.  It should be Expensive, not Normal cost.  I fixed that, and I hope you'll forgive me for nerfing the spell a bit.

If you don't mind me asking, what did we get in exchange for the nerf if anything? Or is complex mental magic always going to be a minimum of Expensive from now on?

What's the expense of Spear of Allah currently, as that isn't mentioned in the most recent text? If it's more than Normal/Cheap and we succeed on revising it, we should probably spend the Expense credit on it as it will cause quite the turnaround. If the revision isn't successful and Terramancy is selected and works out well, the Expense Credit there would be quite the mover and shaker, especially in the Mountains.

[evictedSaint]

Normal cost spells can be cast by apprentices.

Expensive spells must be cast by trained wizards.

Very Expensive spells require multiple wizards to cast.

National Efforts require you hero to cast, and you can only use one.

SoA is Very Expensive, due to requiring Storm Strike (which itself is Very Expensive - the spell cost trickles down for variants)

[S34N1C]

I'll +1 terramancy for now

[Kashyyk]

I vote for Dispel Magic - Any enduring spell,  such as crystal caltrops,  crystal axes, fog banks and walls of fire, require a complex weave of magic to keep it in place. By specifically targeting this enchantment, we can force the spell to end ahead of time.

In its current form, this will not be enough to shoot down fireballs, but this should be a good stepping stone.

[NUKE9.13]

I'm once again going to recommend we go for a superweapon, one that can finally turn the tide in the jungle firmly in our favour. I don't expect this to work immediately, but I'd like to get started on it so that we can revise it to work in future years.

Deus ex Tempestas*: We know the storm. We control the storm. We feel the power contained within the storm. And now it is time to unleash that power.
God can be found in all things, for all things are a part of Him. The storm included. We can summon his aid, a fraction of his divine being, in the form of a towering Storm Elemental.
The unlimited rage and unfathomable power of the storm made manifest, the Storm Elemental stands as tall as four men, made up entirely of swirling black clouds, the occasional flash of lightning running through its body. It cannot be harmed by mortal blades, for truly, when have mundane means ever been able to control the weather? It can easily harm mortals in return, though. Fists slam into enemy soldiers with all the power of a hurricane behind them, small thunderbolts leap from its torso, and men and horses alike flee before its raging bellow. Fallen branches, small rocks, and unfortunate soldiers are all whipped into the air by the towering giant, to come crashing down on enemy archers.
The Storm Elemental can only be summoned during inclement weather, obviously, and may be somewhat hard to control without the efforts of several trained mages. It is expected to be a National Effort.

Also, can we do something about our constant losses in the mountains and

Order - Concede the Mountains: Look, guys, we aren't winning in the mountains. Stop throwing good men after bad, and let them have them- at least for now. We need the men in other theatres.

I really want to conquer the jungles, so that we can get the necessary hardwoods with which to build a fearsome

Quinquireme: We have the manpower of the plains, and the hardwoods of the jungle. Combine the two, and what do you get? A massive warship, propelled by a combination of oars and magically-powered sails. The Quinquireme is large enough to carry hundreds of soldiers, and dozens of mages. They can serve as flagships for our fleets, or as transports for our ground troops. Later, they will be able to carry several ballistas on their expansive decks. A large tower allows our archers to rain down death upon enemy longships, whilst the high sides make it difficult for the Arstotzkans to board us in return.
By augmenting our small, manoeuvrable sailing ships with a massive medieval battleship, the seas will fall firmly under our control. And once they are, the Quinquireme's transport capacity will allow us to make full use of our naval supremacy to deploy troops wherever and whenever we need them.

So, to be clear, I'm voting for Deus ex Tempestas and Order - Concede the Mountains. Though if people still don't feel like building a superweapon, I'd understand.


EDIT: Actually, after thinking about it some more, I doubt that DeT would succeed, in either getting enough votes, or being an even marginally successful design. We just don't have any experience with summoning 'living' things. Much as I would like to start with a big prototype and work down to mass-produced units, I feel like the GM is more likely to reward humility. So I'm changing my vote to

Creature of the Storm: Okay, so, a towering giant may be a bit ambitious. How about we start small, with a Lesser Storm Elemental. The same height as a man, but made up of swirling black clouds, they are immune to mortal blades, which pass harmlessly through them, whilst delivering savage blows with all the force of a tornado in return.
These give us a way to hold our own in prolonged melee where our brave soldiers are usually at a disadvantage. They would only be summoned during stormy weather, and probably require the attention of a wizard to keep them under control. The first prototypes are expected to be between Very Expensive and A National Effort, but with practice we should hopefully be able to get them down to just Expensive.

Also,

SoA is Very Expensive, due to requiring Storm Strike (which itself is Very Expensive - the spell cost trickles down for variants)

But surely we can cast SoA multiple times during a single storm? You can fire cheap bullets from an expensive gun. We have a group of expert mages summon the storm, then have less experienced mages summon lightning (or other things) from it.
Which is not to say that I think SoA should be Expensive, just that it should be possible to make it so without lowering the cost of Storm Strike first.

[Sosoku234]

+1 to Dispel Magic