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[Roboson]

Its cute that you think getting a new product done in one year is fair. It's been years, and our cannons still can't match your ballistas for accuracy, and only a few can outrange you. Not to meantion they're not as deadly. Our ships can barely outpace yours, and that's only our very very expensive ones (that's a new category of expense, made just for us btw). Not to meantion our ammo still sucks despite us working on that too. And our cool ammo is a nation effort despite being made out of completely existing technology. In the last decade all we've managed to achieve is lesser versions of technology that you put out in two or three years. The sheer number of dice were putting into these in order to get them to your level is utterly ridiculous (both from a gameplay perspective and a strategic perspective from our players). We haven't done anything new in ages, but our shit still doesn't beat yours.

Meanwhile in one year you can get flight which is stable enough for you to cast your anti-arrow wind spell without knocking you out of the air? I don't mean to complain too much, but like really? It just doesn't seem to line up right.

[Taricus]

Too bad you didn't weaponise complaining; Arstotzka would've won by now if they had

And anyway, this is a game that's mostly centred around magic, and you're complaining that you're not winning without using it?

[Chiefwaffles]

Oh, poor Moskurg, having to use a design and revision to get their fully functional stable air bombers.
I guess that trumps the 3+ designs and multiple revisions we had to go through in order to make our ships just barely match the speed of yours while sacrificing everything else.

And we're making heavy use of magic in doing all of this.

[Taricus]

Maybe you need to look at using a different school of magic?

[andrea]

The one time we did we ended with shrubs after a design and a revision. But I can't remember the rolls, so perhaps we just rolled poorly.

Were shrubs ever mentioned in your reports?

[Chiefwaffles]

We got a 3 in effectiveness and 4 on the revision for the plant growth magic.

[Taricus]

Nope, no shrubberies here. Must be scaring them off with NI!

[Roboson]

Maybe you need to look at using a different school of magic?

Last time we did that, we rolled really well. But our design came out a million times less powerful than intended. These buggers won't even consider new magic at this point.

The one time we did we ended with shrubs after a design and a revision. But I can't remember the rolls, so perhaps we just rolled poorly.

Were shrubs ever mentioned in your reports?

We rolled quite well IIRC. We got a 3 on effectiveness, and even after a decent revision, still didn't match the intended design at all.

[RAM]

rifled barrels

Sorry, that was my bad, I suggested that we would be able to do that if we were shamelessly anachronistic like Mosskeg. And then I came up with this plausible idea that would lead to the idea of rifling. But then everyone jumped on it and said "Let's do rifled barrels!" and so we did rifled barrels... So now I can't call you shamlessly anachronistic anymore, which makes me sad...

And remember everyone, Losing is Fun! If you don't like how a thing is implemented, then give it a whirl arguing how it should happen, but if you don't like the outcome, then try to enjoy working areound it, rather than arguing the point down to the finest detail. I am far from perfect in this front, but I usually just give up and accept that this game is populated entirely by hamsters that escaped from the generators that were powering their computers and are now desperately trying to figure things out before they run out of power or their enslaver returns so none of you have time enough to form coherent arguments. It is so much simpler that way...

[Taricus]

Well given the tree cover actually helps our 'bombers', it's probably a good idea that you didn't pursue that little line. But seriously you're trying to make things that exceed the manufacturing capabilities of the time and you're complaining that it doesn't work well when you do try those things?

Also, Moskurg, Anachonistic? Mate your plate armour was the first thing that was anachronistic!

[Chiefwaffles]

Losing is less fun when it feels unjustified.


I just want this to stop happening; I want to be able to explore new or even semi-related schools of magic without being heavily penalized for it.

So let me give an example. For the purpose of this example, I will admit I looked into the Moskurg thread solely to get the rolls for the Flying Carpet and its Revision. I promise I looked at absolutely nothing else.

Take the Plant Growth spell. (I'll redact this information if anyone in Arstotzka asks.)
We roll a 3 on effectiveness on a spell intended to be able to do things like raise trees, vines, etc.
We get a spell that lets us grow grass, wildflowers, and weeds after taking multiple minutes on each plant.
We roll a 4 on a revision to increase the scale of things grown.
Wow! Now we can grow saplings to the height of our wizards!

Moskurg wants to make a flying carpet.
They roll a 3 on effectiveness and a 3 on revision.
They get a carpet that actually lets them fly to high distances, over enemy lines, and be stealthy while they're at it. They literally get an air bomber.

Do you see the problem here?

[Andres]

Chiefwaffles, that was an entirely new field of magic for us while the flying bombers were a combination of multiple existing technologies Moskurg already had. That's why despite the rolls they got a result better than what we got.

[Chiefwaffles]

Plant Growth was based on conjuration and life-related spells we already had.
Besides, shouldn't risks associated with new territories be in the penalties? The rolls I listed were the end results after penalties and bonuses.

[Roboson]

That's definitely not equivalent. Like irrefutably. They got magic carpets with wind shields for worse rolls than we got for baby trees, after all bonuses applied. Straight up, that's just not cool. Whats the point in playing if the rolls don't mater?

[FallacyofUrist]

The only life-related spells we already had were our wasp conjuration. Plant Growth was almost entirely new.