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[Roboson]

Yeah and we were penalized for that. Yet our rolls, after including those penalties, were better than their flying carpet rolls (according to chief).

The issue isn't that plants suck, it's that if those rolls make our design suck, then the same/worse rolls should also make other designs suck just as bad.

[Detoxicated]

Look if you feel cheated and such and you don't get fun out of it you can always quit the game. In the end it is a fantastical tale about two fantastical nations doing a magic war over a piece of land. There is beautiful designs by both teams, and the gm takes the effort to value those designs, some came out bad, some horribly good, all related to rolls, sometimes maybe a flaw in perception gm wise.
All of this happens because people have fun playing this. I was thrilled to see some of our prior designs to work, we spent 2 turns on them and they wouldn't work. We also put alot of effort into the ballistas, and seemingly out of nowhere you came with cannons. It was annoying, yet it was fun because it led to alot of discussion on what to do next...

[Chiefwaffles]

Or I can point out the unfairness in rolls to try and make the game more fair?
I enjoy the game and know that Evicted isn't secretly conspiring to make Moskurg win or anything. Just saying "quit if you don't like it" is such a... stupid thing to say. Solutions other than one party getting fed up and leaving are possible.

And read my post - you got a 3 on effectiveness and a 3 on revision to make your fast stealthy air bombers. We rolled a 3 on effectiveness and 4 on a revision to improve effectiveness and got a spell that lets us make small plants. This is after the penalties and bonuses which our prior experience and knowledge determine. You say "all related to rolls" yet this just isn't true.

[Detoxicated]

The point is, that the gm has posted several times that he is getting tired of the game due to the fact that people keep on bickering.
Honestly, If you have a good solution please present it

[helmacon]

nerf one side or buff the other?

[Chiefwaffles]

I'm not going to just quietly accept how uneven this can be for the sake of the game.

I said this to Evicted in the Arstotzkan thread, and I still mean it. Wands Race is probably one of my favorite FG games to this date, and I'm extremely glad for Evicted and hope he doesn't stop GMing until the game gets a proper finish. I understand how hard it can be to be even to both parties and that listening to the bickering of both can be tiring. I'd like to re-emphasize this. I cannot understate how much I'd rather the game keep going in its current state than stopping, but I would still prefer it being a bit more even.

But to use a semi-related example: If you had a job with a boss who's great in just about every aspect except in one aspect which is starting to hurt your morale, shouldn't you be able to raise the issue with the hope of fixing it to make both parties happy? Or are you supposed to remain quiet just accepting that it's hurting you because you don't raise the issue?

I'm not even necessarily saying "NERF CARPETS" or "BUFF ARSTOTZKA" but this has been a repeated pattern in the game to the point where it feels like we're being extremely punished for ever trying anything new, whether it can be branched out from our current stuff or not. I'm just tired of getting hit with penalties or general under-powered stuff every time we try something new, and even times when we build on completely existing things.

[Detoxicated]

I agree with your point saying that you should raise the issue to fix a problem.

So where do you feel would be the necessity to balance? I mean you had the plant growth spell problem, and the steam engine, anything else?
On the other side where did you feel was Moskurg OPd? Carpets, Ballista?
Could any moskurger raise his concerns when Moskurg felt cheated?

[Chiefwaffles]

I'm not saying anything is OP.
I'm pointing out the apparent inequality across design results despite rolls. Whether in the future the same rolls mean loss for Moskurg or more for Arstotzka I'm fine with.

And what's with that last question? Of course people can raise concerns.

[Detoxicated]

Sorry that came out wrong, what I am trying to do is getting people to briefly state all the problems we have seen in the past so we can weigh them and find a pleasing solution to this.
I just want a list of things...

[evictedSaint]

Whatever.  After giving it some thought, Arstotzka's plant mages can now affect patches of plants in a diameter equal to their height and grow them up to their own height, regardless of the plants type or initial size.  All their boats are now steam ships, because it makes sense that an ordinary wooden boat cost the same with a steam engine on it.  I'm not changing their new artillery piece or nerfing Moskurgs carpets.  I'm tired of arguing. 

[Light forger]

Spoiler: Letter of Resignation (click to show/hide)

I'm just leaving a note here that I'm stepping off the Arstotzka design team and out of the game. After looking at how my side handles salt and their likely next design I don't see good things coming. Just a fairly pointless note since on B12 you can't even tell of people are viewing threads and, the only real reason to do this is if I want to read Moskurg's thread at some point.

[Chiefwaffles]

Well, we'll miss you then Light Forger.

And to everyone on Moskurg: Thanks for enduring our salt and whining and being generally good sports regardless. Thanks yet again to Evicted for being able to withstand this while still running an amazing game.

[Devastator]

So when are we getting buffs for -insert design that rolled well- here?  It's clearly unbalanced because -numbers- are better than -numbers-, which is your equivalent to that?

Of course, being Moskurg, we're supposed to work with things as they are.  I would love to have your half-assed plant magic, there's a ton of useful stuff you can do with it, including some designs which could well flip the game on it's ear.  Same for most of your kinds of magic/generic equipment.  All you need to do is think instead of whining your way to victory.

[10ebbor10]

You guys have no reason to complain. The fact that you can't bring up any example shows that.

And the pittance we got here is little more than adding insult to injury. When we designed our steam ship (which, I remind you, was little more than putting our twice designed, twice revised steam engine in a ship, no other improvements), we rolled a 6 on cost.

It got hit by a  -3 penalty, which got it a 3. In any other design, this would have made it expensive, but instead we got Very, Very Expensive, a category invented solely for our ship. It was said that to lower the cost, we would have to lower the cost of the components. We did that, but there was no cost improvement.

And now the GM is pretending it's some grand, implausible gesture to make the ship Very Expensive?

And to add further insult, the ships are completely ineffective. You guys had to do nothing at all to account for them, nothing to counter them. Hell, when you had ships that were slightly faster, you could hold of our fleet despite it being twice larger. You did that for several turns. When we do, there's no meaningfull effect.

Of course, being Moskurg, we're supposed to work with things as they are.

Because things as they are for you means : You can design a cheap, mundane, long range, handheld, and quite simply better in every way equivalent of your opponents best technology in a single turn.

Look at things from our side. What if your Flying Carpet spell took  5 turns to make, requires magic tassels that need to be revised separatly if you want to lower cost, and ended up in it's own separate cost category even though you rolled 6 on cost

Then you deploy it, and it does nothing. You get a few words about how our archers shoot at them, but the balance of battle doesn't change. You improve it, still the same thing.

And then we come along, and in a Single action design Ironclads, which also have tank treads allowing them to operate in every battlefield. They destroy your forces everywhere they go.

I gather you would be annoyed.

  I would love to have your half-assed plant magic, there's a ton of useful stuff you can do with it, including some designs which could well flip the game on it's ear.  Same for most of your kinds of magic/generic equipment.  All you need to do is think instead of whining your way to victory

Fine, do a proposal.

I'll tell you what would happen if we tried it.

[Devastator]

You guys have no reason to complain. The fact that you can't bring up any example shows that.

Seriously?  I'll go take this to PMs.