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[Thisfox]

....It actually seems pretty realistic to me.

I have friends in the real world who have been together for 19 years, had kids together, and still haven't been married. They considered it, but they've been too busy. Doesn't seem much different to Dwarf Fortress. They still have time, they always will. Hell, some human marriages don't last half that time length. Perhaps in another 10 years, they will get married. But the marriage isn't essential to the relationship, or even to the likelihood of breeding. I like it when Dwarf Fortress is similar to reality.

[mikekchar]

I have some interim reports.  It's about 3 months in to the burrows and the "second seven" have no friends yet.  In that time, I got one "lover" relationship in the first seven.  I only have 4 other immigrants so far, though.  I'm 9 months into the fortress total.

Each burrow has a meeting place, dormatory, and tavern.  I've pretty much segregated the work, but at the moment the work places are in the same general area.  This means that the first seven and the second seven will bump into each other in the corridors.  I also have many shared stockpiles.  I'm just in the process of setting up temples.  I've decided to go with individual temples for each god.  The temples are segregated, so because some gods are worshipped by both areas, I will have multiple temples for those gods.

Based on some reports, I was kind of expecting some crossover in which taverns people attended, but so far they are obeying the burrows.  The taverns (and temples) are in out of the way places, so neither side has to cross over a burrow to get to a tavern (which could distract them, I guess).  I've also disallowed any visitors at all.  It's nice to see them reciting poetry native to the civ for once!

Finally, I was also careful to construct the taverns and temples from dining halls rather than meeting places.  I have exactly 1 meeting place for each burrow.  This seems to solve the problem that FantasicDorf reported that dwarfs never go to meeting places.  Indeed, I have dwarfs idling in the meeting place rather than the tavern.  Now they only go to the tavern to socialise.

[iceball3]

Reading all this, it really is fascinating to glean all this, and it sort of makes sense why my 4 year fortress didn't have any lovers at all.
I'll run a sort of multi-cloister-gated-community setup with this in mind on my next fortress, which will be a fun design paradigm, I think. I'll let you know if i get any new amount of dwarven couples as a result when I get around to implementing it, yeah. To note, I am using dfhack, but i believe none of the scripts I'll be using will interfere mostly.

[Squirrelloid]

For micro-burrowing, do you put their workshops near their bedrooms?  Don't you have noise problems from beds being too close to a workshop, or did that stop being true at some point?

[Thisfox]

For micro-burrowing, do you put their workshops near their bedrooms?  Don't you have noise problems from beds being too close to a workshop, or did that stop being true at some point?

Apparently it's no longer a thing, and nor is a "drafty fortress". It has influenced my construction ever since though. You could probably date my fort building from the way I dig/build.

[Squirrelloid]

For micro-burrowing, do you put their workshops near their bedrooms?  Don't you have noise problems from beds being too close to a workshop, or did that stop being true at some point?

Apparently it's no longer a thing, and nor is a "drafty fortress". It has influenced my construction ever since though. You could probably date my fort building from the way I dig/build.

o.O  I can really update my fortress designs.  So much inefficiency over trying to prevent dwarves waking up grumpy because of noise.

[PatrikLundell]

Interesting progress.
If some of the "some reports" referred to by mikekchar were mine, I'd like to clarify that my burrow defying dorfs have all gone to a tavern outside the burrow in situations where none existed inside, so the situation isn't the same. In the situations where dorfs kept visiting "visitors only" taverns I didn't use burrows.

A significant difference between modern human behavior and DF dwarven one is that dorfs have an amazing skill in contraceptive techniques, and don't produce kids out of wedlock as an absolute taboo. For modern humans, formal marriage is just a convention so all the things associated with it (such as kids, shared economy, living together etc.) can be present without the formal step ever being taken. Thisfox' friends would be running out of reproductive time (being human rather than dwarves) if they were bound by dwarven rules, but would probably fit a dwarven lover relationship if childless (still separate beds for dwarves, though).

Looking forward to further reports.

[mikekchar]

Interesting.  I'm guessing that's what the problem is then.  I have another issue -- the temples in one of the burrows don't seem to be used.  I suspect it's related to the fact that I have more than one temple to the same god.  I also wonder if that's the issue with having an overall temple and several individual temples.  Anyway, I'll keep tabs on it.

Another interesting sub-result is that I seem to be getting "friendship escalation" without socialising.  Some of the dwarfs that are in different burrows have increased their level (from passing aquaintance to friendly terms).  I may have imagined that, though.  I just got another set of immigrants so I'll burrow them in the main burrow.  There should be no possibility of them idling or socialising with the "second seven", so I'm expecting them to have no friendship level.  If they *do* end up getting friendship level, then it can happen when you bump into each other in the halls (or there is some other mechanism for socialising that I'm missing).

On another front, the second seven include 2 married couples (I had to go with what I had... and I'm only going to see if they make friends).  Those married couples have had no trouble at all "spending time with family".

[PatrikLundell]

I gave up dedicated temples when visitors came and spent half a year or more there before going to do what they were supposed to (like petition). The buggers still arrived to visit those dedicated temples (in their stated goals) even after temples were restricted to residents, but they seemed to use the general one. This shouldn't be an issue for mikekchar, as visitors are disabled, though.

Since dorfs can get acquainted with merchants, there are definitely interactions outside of socializing (and I've had dorfs getting into fights with merchants after discussions/quarrels). I suspect those interactions are required to get the initial foothold on the relation ladder, and that socializing before that does nothing. I've also seen the theory that initial relation points are scored at the initiation of actions, so socializing for a month without interruptions would score a single point towards relation ladder entry, but several points towards an existing relation. Another theory was that social activities broken off before completion (the song cancelled halfway, for instance) would yield nothing, and anyone leaving before completion (to eat/sleep/work/...) would cancel the whole task for all involved, in which case the small group division experiment should work wonders.

I've seen the friendship level decay at least once. That happened when a dorf had died, and someone knowing him slowly lost the level over several years.

[mikekchar]

I've realised one reason for the decreasing number of friendships.  You can't be friends with a relative.  Over time, more and more of the dwarfs coming into the fortress (as immigrants) are related.  So each dwarf can have 10 cousins.

In other news, the "second seven" have yet to make a single friend after 5 months.  I've moved more of their workshops into their specific burrow and segregated the work a bit more to encourage isolation in the burrows, however I'm starting to be swayed into thinking that there really is something broken here ;-)

One theory I have is that dwarfs build up need for companionship over time.  Dwarfs with lots of relatives don't feel the need to make friends.  The starting seven are "poofed" into existence without friends or family and so make friends quickly.  Immigrants, generally have lots of family.  This would explain why PatrikLundell is able to be successful in making matchups in his dying civ, while Squirrelloid is having no luck.  If I get some immigrants without family, I may burrow them separately to see if they make friends.

[iceball3]

I've realised one reason for the decreasing number of friendships.  You can't be friends with a relative.  Over time, more and more of the dwarfs coming into the fortress (as immigrants) are related.  So each dwarf can have 10 cousins.

In other news, the "second seven" have yet to make a single friend after 5 months.  I've moved more of their workshops into their specific burrow and segregated the work a bit more to encourage isolation in the burrows, however I'm starting to be swayed into thinking that there really is something broken here ;-)

One theory I have is that dwarfs build up need for companionship over time.  Dwarfs with lots of relatives don't feel the need to make friends.  The starting seven are "poofed" into existence without friends or family and so make friends quickly.  Immigrants, generally have lots of family.  This would explain why PatrikLundell is able to be successful in making matchups in his dying civ, while Squirrelloid is having no luck.  If I get some immigrants without family, I may burrow them separately to see if they make friends.

How distantly related must a dwarf be before they're considered unrelated? Or does the family line continue forever, forcing us to depend on non-historical figure migrants for continued procreative fraternity?

[mikekchar]

Basically, anybody who is listed as a cousin, aunt, uncle, brother, sister, mother, father, grandmother,  or grandfather is not listed in the aquaintances as far as I can tell (happy to be proven wrong as I haven't checked my other games).

But I'm now convinced (as most people already were ;-) ) that there is something odd, because even after 7 months I haven't got a single friendship in the second seven.  It's been a bit hectic gathering wood and fighting werebears, so I might let them idle for a few months to see if that helps.

[Putnam]

For micro-burrowing, do you put their workshops near their bedrooms?  Don't you have noise problems from beds being too close to a workshop, or did that stop being true at some point?

Apparently it's no longer a thing, and nor is a "drafty fortress". It has influenced my construction ever since though. You could probably date my fort building from the way I dig/build.

Being annoyed at "the draft" referred to a military draft, not a windy draft.

[Squirrelloid]

I've realised one reason for the decreasing number of friendships.  You can't be friends with a relative.  Over time, more and more of the dwarfs coming into the fortress (as immigrants) are related.  So each dwarf can have 10 cousins.

In other news, the "second seven" have yet to make a single friend after 5 months.  I've moved more of their workshops into their specific burrow and segregated the work a bit more to encourage isolation in the burrows, however I'm starting to be swayed into thinking that there really is something broken here ;-)

One theory I have is that dwarfs build up need for companionship over time.  Dwarfs with lots of relatives don't feel the need to make friends.  The starting seven are "poofed" into existence without friends or family and so make friends quickly.  Immigrants, generally have lots of family.  This would explain why PatrikLundell is able to be successful in making matchups in his dying civ, while Squirrelloid is having no luck.  If I get some immigrants without family, I may burrow them separately to see if they make friends.

None of my dwarves came to the fortress with any relatives (except for children or spouses that came with them).  They all seem to have been created from nothing.  (I think the civ is all but dead - one of my starting 7 became Queen before the first caravan, and all the other civ officers that are listed in the civ info screen are merchants).  So it's definitely not relationship issues that are causing issues for me.

[iceball3]

For micro-burrowing, do you put their workshops near their bedrooms?  Don't you have noise problems from beds being too close to a workshop, or did that stop being true at some point?

Apparently it's no longer a thing, and nor is a "drafty fortress". It has influenced my construction ever since though. You could probably date my fort building from the way I dig/build.

Being annoyed at "the draft" referred to a military draft, not a windy draft.

I confess that in my early years of DF, this is what i thought it meant, too, luckily i learned in my first foray military stuff on a deeper level.