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[Scoops Novel]

What are the options DF has for improving the chat system?

Toady doesn't want to use the same system as books, as he finds it's immersion breaking. But to be honest, without going full chatbot i'm struggling to see what else is feasible with a shred of personality.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Are there any examples of perfectly simulated conversation without a script anywhere? If that's what he's aiming for (and I'm not sure that was implied in his fotf answer) he's going to have to invent something new.

Ultima Ratio Regum has been working on simulated conversation for quite a while now and it still seems to be at the 'tell me about...'--'simulated reply of knowledge with variations' stage which isn't that much more complex than DF.

Is full natural conversation actually needed (or indeed, an aim of the game)? Filling in the gaps with imagined small talk seems to work.

A filter on background noise would be nice. By which I mean, I like having various conversations going on around me, but perhaps limit them to one or two at random. Feasibly I'm not going to pick up on 10 ongoing conversations in a noisy pub. Then add an option to listen more carefully to a particular conversation that you find interesting. Or an option to listen for a particular topic (rumours of artifacts for example).

[Scoops Novel]

Hey, i said nothing about perfect conversation. Stuff like the value judgement system people can discuss is a good start, but you need banter in the game for conversation to feel natural. None of us would care about our favorite characters if all they ever talked about was the nature of justice.

Abstraction seems like the only option for that.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Hey, i said nothing about perfect conversation. Stuff like the value judgement system people can discuss is a good start, but you need banter in the game for conversation to feel natural. None of us would care about our favorite characters if all they ever talked about was the nature of justice.

Abstraction seems like the only option for that.

But abstraction isn't particularly personal, is it?
"Urist recounts how his village was destroyed by a dragon in the midwinter of 675."
"Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold".

Right now characters have enough information to argue values, say how they're feeling, say what they want/need, recall elements of their own history, mention rumours and tell jokes without punchlines.

They could also feasibly display individual mannerisms (scratches his scar) and spontaneously start performing. So what's missing?

Variations dependent on personality/ethics/upbringing would be a good start (like URR). That's just a matter of adding a whole bunch of text to draw from.

Then location specific stuff would help although that would be harder. 'Ooh a dark cave, let's hunt some Kobolds'. 'Watch out for alligators!'. They already know enough to mention that 'giant ostriches roam free out here'.

What else is needed to make characters seem more real?(Besides continuous perfect conversation, which we'll put aside for now).

[IndigoFenix]

Emoting and gestures would greatly help in making characters seem more realistic.  Most human conversation is non-verbal after all, and it would help avert the "that makes me feel angry" trope that dominates DF conversations right now.

Consider the implications between the following, and how it would help make the characters seem more "real" and personalized.

Urist McWarrior, stoic: Death is all around us.
Urist McCivilian, terrified: Death is all around us.
Urist McPsychopath, laughing: Death is all around us.

Much better than "Death is all around us.  This makes me feel X".

One thing that could be interesting is if there were an "emotion cube" with a few individual axes to determine a unit's emotional state.  These could be modified and influence how other creatures treat you, similar to how yielding works.

One possible such "cube" could be an "positive-arousal-dominant" cube.

Relaxed/Negative/Submissive: Stoic
Aroused/Negative/Submissive: Afraid
Relaxed/Positive/Submissive: Smiling
Relaxed/Negative/Dominant: Contempt
Aroused/Positive/Submissive: Laughing
Relaxed/Positive/Dominant: Smirking
Aroused/Negative/Dominant: Enraged
Aroused/Positive/Dominant: Excited

This could be useful from an AI standpoint because units could respond to cues from each axis separately.  The dominant axis could be linked to morale, the positive axis could be linked to friendship, and the arousal axis could function as a multiplier.

[Scoops Novel]

But abstraction isn't particularly personal, is it?
"Urist recounts how his village was destroyed by a dragon in the midwinter of 675."
"Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold".

Nah man, you're missing all the descriptors where the meat is. "Urist cries, face scrunched into bitter rage. He lingers on hows easily they were ruined." "Thorin gets bored and seques Actually songs are already more interesting then the example you gave.

I ain't saying strip all the first-person details we've already got in the game, and i would really like URR's Q&A system. I think you need a abstract system in addition for the edge cases, like banter.

Good ideas otherwise, peeps.

[Shonai_Dweller]

But abstraction isn't particularly personal, is it?
"Urist recounts how his village was destroyed by a dragon in the midwinter of 675."
"Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold".

Nah man, you're missing all the descriptors where the meat is. "Urist cries, face scrunched into bitter rage. He lingers on hows easily they were ruined." "Thorin gets bored and seques Actually songs are already more interesting then the example you gave.

I ain't saying strip all the first-person details we've already got in the game, and i would really like URR's Q&A system. I think you need a abstract system in addition for the edge cases, like banter.

Good ideas otherwise, peeps.

Hmm. But where would you put something like that and still have it seem natural? "Right, now I'll stop travelling and indulge in banter" seems odd and being stopped by the system to look at some abstracted banter would be annoying.

Right now we can catch fleeting extracts of conversation around town and half pay attention to our companions as they argue which all seems natural (if somewhat limited in content). Throwing in an extracted description in amongst that noise would be distracting. So how would you see it working?

[Scoops Novel]

BTW, i agree the conversation spam near npc's needs work. It should really blur together, with maybe the odd snippet breaking through.

On topic, banter is mostly so conversations aren't just information dispensaries. At the moment, i can effectively walk up to a stranger and get into a in-depth conversation about Syria without anyone batting a eyelid. Realistically, you'd sidle up to someone who didn't look too busy, say "Hi, odd question i know but where did you get those shoes? I love them!", natter for a minute and then you explain you've been in a coma and would quite like to know about current affairs.

In other words, you need a system for small talk, buttering people up and putting them down. When spirits get low around the campfire, you don't talk about the righteousness of your mission, you tell a joke.

So you'd have a friendliness system which determines how willing people are to talk to you, socializing which can affect mood and perception of the player, etc.

"Right, now I'll stop travelling and indulge in banter" seems odd and being stopped by the system to look at some abstracted banter would be annoying.

Now that you mention it, fast travel could do with being a sight less vague. It would be annoying to force a discussion about the local gossip, so instead you could set your conversation preferences during fast travel, bounce it off your companions own preferences and have the result summarized at the end of the journey. You would only be pulled out of fast travel for a conversation if it suddenly got weighty or key information was divulged. You could also be informed of individuals mood (or the parties for large groups), so morale and leadership become an ongoing concern.

Right now we can catch fleeting extracts of conversation around town and half pay attention to our companions as they argue which all seems natural (if somewhat limited in content). Throwing in an extracted description in amongst that noise would be distracting. So how would you see it working?

Lastly, the idea is that people discussing something actually important will stand out rather then the opposite. Throw a stick at the moment and it will land by 6 people hyperventilating over how terrifying someone is.

[Squirrelloid]

I don't know, based on real life conversations, unless you're with friends, literally half of it is talking about the weather.  That doesn't seem like it would be too hard to write in.  Your adventurer isn't going to be great friends with most people he talks to, and he isn't going into business with most people he runs into (so that excludes a large purpose-driven area of conversation), so between personal history, stories, and other things the game does manage, weather would seem to cover most of the remaining routine conversation.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Weather conversation exists already. Nothing needs adding except the triggers for making npcs do it a bit more. (And more variety of course, but that goes for everything).

[Squirrelloid]

Weather conversation exists already. Nothing needs adding except the triggers for making npcs do it a bit more. (And more variety of course, but that goes for everything).

Ah.  Mostly play fortress mode, so I hadn't noticed the few times I was in adventure mode.

I think people are over-estimating the variety of conversation topics that occurs with people you aren't close to, especially once you factor out conversation types that adventurers don't need.  (Your adventurer is probably not going to the local carpenter and ordering custom cabinets, for example).  If those topics are a bit formulaic, well, I don't expect the game is going to miraculously become a font of original metaphor and hyperbole - passing the Turing test for just the conversation part seems a bit far-fetched as even being worthwhile.

[Scoops Novel]

Come on mates. Being a conman needs to be a viable playstyle in adventure mode, or what is the planned thief playstyle actually worth? This could be the first "rogue"like to put "charming" back into it's vocabulary.

I mean, how else are you supposed to defuse a situation, or gain someones trust? What mechanic would you create that allows me to explain you've got the wrong guy? Adventure mode is supposed to generate interesting stories, not just detailed murders.

I think you need a generalized system to do this properly, not just a "small talk" option or a "calm down" option or the inevitable 50 million options that it would take if you do it case by case. Something like URR's collection of conversation keywords,



forming abstract, lightly detailed descriptions instead of URR's time-consuming, individualized precreated sentences. Just like books.



Shoot me if that seems impossible.

[GoblinCookie]

Folks could discuss work and pass on work small amounts of work skills maybe?  Particularly useful for something like swimming that cannot really be learned safely by experience.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Folks could discuss work and pass on work small amounts of work skills maybe?  Particularly useful for something like swimming that cannot really be learned safely by experience.

That'd be good. Have some training going on between companions like in Fortress mode. That's going quite a bit beyond conversation though.

I think the problem is that 'camp for 10 hours' or 'build a hut for 3 days' all happens off-screen (and most would prefer it that way) and that's where all the friendship forming conversations between companions would take place. Which leaves you with offering the player the choice of seeing what they're talking about or not. And if you do that you've lost the natural spontaneous nature of DF conversation.

A bit of flavor text for the 'time passes' screen would be kind of interesting I suppose. Not sure if it achieves what the op was after.

Camp for 2 days
...
Urist teaches Roder how to bite
...
Udir recalls the battle between you and a Kea which occurred 2 days ago
...
Sleeping
...
Urist prays to Zam Powerswords God of light, dark, hope and torture
...

[Scoops Novel]

Exactly.