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Author Topic: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [Need 6 People + Suggestions]  (Read 30684 times)

Draignean

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2017, 09:49:11 pm »

Actually, there's a good question: What happens if you get a free counter against an enemy you can't reach? Nothing?

I think I will switch to a light active block, if only to see how it plays out.

Very likely it does nothing. It cancels the incoming attack, and I'd let you make a ranged riposte if you had a ranged weapon equipped, but little else. I think I need to scale ranged weapon damage down, or make it easier to dodge. It just seems strictly better at the moment.
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Draignean

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2017, 10:59:59 pm »

Frame 1
Bandit 1 Does nothing

Bandit 2 Light Attack Against Shorn and Shorn Heavy Attack Against Bandit 2
L Vs H
10 vs 7 (10)  Reroll 7 Vs 6 (10), Miss
1d10-2 vs 1d6 |  -1 (AutoMiss) Vs 2, Miss   (Messed up their evasion last round)

Bandit 3 Moves West

Hau Rolls Defensively

Miles Attacks Bandit 3
1d10+2 vs 1d6, 5 vs 4, Hit
Bandit 3 Gibbed

Bandit 4 moves West
Bandit 5 Moves West

Frame 2

Bandit 1 Blocks!

Bandit 2 Dodge Rolls

Bandit 4 Moves West

Bandit 5 Moves West

Hau Dodge Rolls!

Miles Fires on bandit 1
L Vs B, Timed Block!
1d10+2 vs 1d9+2 | 6 vs 7, Blocked!

Shorn is on cooldown

Frame 3

Bandit 1 Winds up a Heavy Attack

Bandit 2 is Dodge Rolling

Bandit 4 Moves West

Bandit 5 moves West

Hau Makes a light attack against bandit 1
1d10+1 Vs 0 (No Evasion!), 4 Vs 0, Hit
Bandit 1 Gibbed

Miles Cools down

Shorn Cools down

Frame 4

Bandit 2 Does Nothing

Bandit 4 Moves West

Bandit 5 Moves North

Shorn Makes active block (light)

Hau Moves West

Miles Moves North

Frame 5

Bandit 2 Makes a Light attack against Shorn
1d10+1 Vs 1d2+6 (12)
11 vs 7 (12)  Miss...

Bandit 4 Does Nothing
Bandit 5 Does nothing

Hau cools down
Miles Cools down.




Spoiler: Enemies (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Bandit Stats (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Miles (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Hau (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Shorn (click to show/hide)


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OceanSoul

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2017, 11:10:14 pm »

1:Windup
2:Windup
3:Move East
4:Move East
5:Heavy Attack nearest bandit
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IronyOwl

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2017, 12:08:11 am »

I just realized not starting in melee range completely shafts their ability to do anything, because dagger throw has a 5 turn cooldown and no known patterns involve moving AND attacking.

Consider moving as a last action to screw them up.


1. Active Block (Light)
2. Heavy Windup 1/4
3. Heavy Attack 2/4
4. Heavy Cooldown 3/4
5. Heavy Cooldown 4/4

Mostly banking on the nearest bandit going for the known heavy attack pattern, which is convenient for me in particular because their light attacks are going to have difficulty harming me.
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Draignean

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2017, 12:12:55 am »

I just realized not starting in melee range completely shafts their ability to do anything, because dagger throw has a 5 turn cooldown and no known patterns involve moving AND attacking.

Consider moving as a last action to screw them up.


1. Active Block (Light)
2. Heavy Windup 1/4
3. Heavy Attack 2/4
4. Heavy Cooldown 3/4
5. Heavy Cooldown 4/4

Mostly banking on the nearest bandit going for the known heavy attack pattern, which is convenient for me in particular because their light attacks are going to have difficulty harming me.

I thought about that, but here's the thing. For NPCs, who can't change the major flow of their patterns, I'm going to allow them to substitute move actions for any of their actions. Now, if they sacrifice a heavy attack for move, they can't refill any of their warm-up/cooldown, which makes it pretty sub-optimal, but it makes kiting less viable.

Also, cooldowns are in frames. So a cooldown of 5 just prevents the move from being used the next round.
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IronyOwl

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2017, 01:01:13 am »

I thought about that, but here's the thing. For NPCs, who can't change the major flow of their patterns, I'm going to allow them to substitute move actions for any of their actions. Now, if they sacrifice a heavy attack for move, they can't refill any of their warm-up/cooldown, which makes it pretty sub-optimal, but it makes kiting less viable.
Ah, I see. So they're actually pretty mobile, despite being a little rigid.

Also, cooldowns are in frames. So a cooldown of 5 just prevents the move from being used the next round.
Well that makes more sense. Related: Does reducing a target's Will below 0 with Death Stare result in negative Resistance values?
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The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Draignean

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2017, 01:40:10 am »

Right. Negative resistance behaves mostly like normal resistance, so every -2 gives you a -1 on your evasion roll.
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Criptfeind

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2017, 07:45:27 am »

1: Blazing Doubleshot on the southern bandits, one shot each.
2: Heavy attack Cool down
3: Heavy attack Cool down
4: Heavy attack Cool down
5: Heavy attack Cool down

Edit: Also I agree, ranged does feel strictly better, less damage is probably a good option? Or even possibility making it so all ranged weapons have a U:X/Y. It seems like a lot of the system is going to be stepping away from enemy attacks when you can, and ranged means you can do that without concern of timing or returning for your own attacks. Like if I was in melee against these guys I could step back on the third frame, which I think would dodge 2/3 of the attacks, but I still get both of my attacks that round, which is pretty good. I could even step in the first and third frame to dodge all their attacks, and still get a attack of my own even though I'm retreating away from them at the start because I have that range...

Edit 2: On the topic of active blocks, I'm wondering about something, the rules specify that you need to chose what enemy you're blocking with an active block, but we've not been doing that, and it's gone though without issues?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 07:58:54 am by Criptfeind »
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Draignean

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2017, 06:34:54 pm »

Edit: Also I agree, ranged does feel strictly better, less damage is probably a good option? Or even possibility making it so all ranged weapons have a U:X/Y. It seems like a lot of the system is going to be stepping away from enemy attacks when you can, and ranged means you can do that without concern of timing or returning for your own attacks. Like if I was in melee against these guys I could step back on the third frame, which I think would dodge 2/3 of the attacks, but I still get both of my attacks that round, which is pretty good. I could even step in the first and third frame to dodge all their attacks, and still get a attack of my own even though I'm retreating away from them at the start because I have that range...

Another option would be to give it a much lower base die for the to-hit, or make it more effected by evasion/resistance- but that brings in other balance issues.

Edit 2: On the topic of active blocks, I'm wondering about something, the rules specify that you need to chose what enemy you're blocking with an active block, but we've not been doing that, and it's gone though without issues?

I mentally nixed this rule the moment it came up. One, because it's a pretty heavy nerf to something that's already rare and dangerous. Two, because the movement system often means that you're not entirely sure if you're next to anyone at all. It was just a bit too clunky before.
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Draignean

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2017, 06:59:29 pm »

Frame 1

Bandit 2 Light Attacks Shorn, Shorn makes an active block!
Shorn ripostes, Bandit cannot evade. 1d10-2 Vs 0 | 2 vs 0
Shorn Hits, 7 damage.

Bandit 4 Moves North
Bandit 5 Moves West

Hau winds up a heavy attack
Miles Uses Blazing Doubleshot
H Vs O Bandit 4
1d10+2 vs 1d6 | 8 vs 3
8x2 = 16 Damage, Gibbed
H vs O Bandit 2 | 12 vs 5
6x2 = 12 Damage, Gibbed

Frame 2

Bandit 2  Dodge rolls

Hau Winds Up
Miles Cools down
Shorn Winds up

Frame 3

Bandit 2 Dodge Rolls

Hau Moves east
Miles Cools down
Shorn Makes a heavy attack
1d10-2 vs 1d21 = 5 vs 14, Miss.

Frame 4

Bandit 2 Does nothing

Hau Moves east
Miles cools down
Shorn Cools down

Frame 5

Bandit 2 Makes a light attack against Shorn
1d10+1 vs 1d2+5 (10) | 4 vs 6 (10), Miss

Miles Cools down
Shorn Cools Down
Hau makes a heavy attack against bandit 2
1d10+1 vs 1d6 | 7 vs 6, Hit
(6+3)*2 = 18
Bandit 2 Gibbed.



Well, that's the end of test one.

Proposed changes:

Ranged Attacks
Ranged damage is approximately halved.
All ranged weapons have a reload parameter
Evasion adds 2 to the upper bound of the die against ranged attacks

Resistance
The guaranteed value given by resistance is capped at the highest possible evasion roll. This reduces Shorn's base resistance from a constant 10 to a constant 7, and reduces it to a 5 when completely unable to dodge.

Thoughts?

Edit: Also considering increasing player health slightly as well as moving the +3 from vigor to a +5.


« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 07:02:18 pm by Draignean »
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IronyOwl

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2017, 12:10:11 am »

Edit: Also I agree, ranged does feel strictly better, less damage is probably a good option? Or even possibility making it so all ranged weapons have a U:X/Y. It seems like a lot of the system is going to be stepping away from enemy attacks when you can, and ranged means you can do that without concern of timing or returning for your own attacks. Like if I was in melee against these guys I could step back on the third frame, which I think would dodge 2/3 of the attacks, but I still get both of my attacks that round, which is pretty good. I could even step in the first and third frame to dodge all their attacks, and still get a attack of my own even though I'm retreating away from them at the start because I have that range...

Another option would be to give it a much lower base die for the to-hit, or make it more effected by evasion/resistance- but that brings in other balance issues.
Ranged Attacks
Ranged damage is approximately halved.
All ranged weapons have a reload parameter
Evasion adds 2 to the upper bound of the die against ranged attacks
I feel like ranged attacks need an explicit niche to function. Light attacks are safer, needling attacks. Heavy attacks are more devastating but harder to pull off. Ranged attacks are... not in melee. Without a solid identity to work towards, they're probably always going to be wonky.

Resistance
The guaranteed value given by resistance is capped at the highest possible evasion roll. This reduces Shorn's base resistance from a constant 10 to a constant 7, and reduces it to a 5 when completely unable to dodge.
I don't have a good enough grasp on the system to say, but this would appear to impede high stackers of the stat and nobody else, so that's probably a good sign.

Edit: Also considering increasing player health slightly as well as moving the +3 from vigor to a +5.
HP vs defenses is always a weird decision, and in this case it's especially weird because HP can't be recovered. I'm not sure what to think, but I find it hard to believe 5 hp will be able to compete with most of the other benefits.
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Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Criptfeind

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2017, 12:34:09 am »

HP vs Defense is going to come down to how battles generally go (depending on enemy to hit stats and how hard their patterns are basically) since healing is limited/nonexistent, if damage is inevitable even with mitigation, raw health gains a lot more value, if mitigation can completely remove damage most of the time, that gains a sorta exponential value that raw health will have a hard time keeping up with.

On resistance, I found it odd that resistance, which comes from willpower and heavy armor helps you avoid blows, not, well, resist them. Not really a comment on balance, but just it was against my expectations. (I'll admit I didn't actually totally read all the rules until the test started lol.) I expected that resistance would be some sorta damage negation, allowing you to ignore light attacks if you had enough of it. This solution looks okay though. Although I guess more enemies need to be seen before it's figured out how good exactly various things are. If enemies scale up so fast that you have to exploit their patterns to avoid attacks, resistance isn't going to be good stat no matter how op it is.

As for ranged weapons... It's tough, maybe they should be restricted to abilities like the throwing knifes were... I'm a bit worried that halving their damage, giving them a priming time (I assumed that what a reload time would mean?) and doubling the effectiveness of dodging them might push them into not being usable, even if they would still be this semi broken mechanic in a melee focused game, past a certain point you might as well not be using your actions if you have melee allies, since I mean, infinitely kiting people with pistols doesn't help your allies that got butchered because you do almost no damage and so they were effectively outnumbered. And importantly it doesn't mean that they are less able to infinitely kite people, just that they take over four times as long to do so. If the goal is to remove them as primary weapons, turning them into just abilities or adding limited uses seems like a better way to do it then to nerfing them into the ground.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 12:41:43 am by Criptfeind »
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OceanSoul

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2017, 07:42:21 am »

Maybe the downside to ranged attacks has to do with targeting foes: you have to pick a space to target with a shot, and if no enemy's there, possibly just the targeted enemy not being there, when the action occurs, it either misses or, if the enemy's still close to the target, it attacks with an accuracy penalty. Maybe just a flatter penalty based on how much the enemy's moved that turn.
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Work on a potential forum game for my return to Bay12. Figure out parts that puzzled me before. Find more things to figure out that I can't. Work on another game instead of solving them. Get distracted and stop working. Remember it a week or two later. Remember I'm still on hiatus. Illogically, Be too ashamed to return yet. Repeat ad nauseam.

Finally have a game completely ready. Wait a week before posting it out of laziness.

Draignean

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2017, 10:40:17 am »

Maybe the downside to ranged attacks has to do with targeting foes: you have to pick a space to target with a shot, and if no enemy's there, possibly just the targeted enemy not being there, when the action occurs, it either misses or, if the enemy's still close to the target, it attacks with an accuracy penalty. Maybe just a flatter penalty based on how much the enemy's moved that turn.

Problem with that is that ensures dedicated ranged characters just stick behind their shield-bros and attack with impunity and nerfs the potentially rare ranged abilities of more dedicated melee combatants. Bah. In more source-ish examples, ranged attacks either had massive warm-up times or did nearly no damage.

As for ranged weapons... It's tough, maybe they should be restricted to abilities like the throwing knifes were... I'm a bit worried that halving their damage, giving them a priming time (I assumed that what a reload time would mean?) and doubling the effectiveness of dodging them might push them into not being usable

Oh, I'm not implementing all of those suggested rebalances. Two of the three at most. Hmm. Hmmm.


Edit: Also I agree, ranged does feel strictly better, less damage is probably a good option? Or even possibility making it so all ranged weapons have a U:X/Y. It seems like a lot of the system is going to be stepping away from enemy attacks when you can, and ranged means you can do that without concern of timing or returning for your own attacks. Like if I was in melee against these guys I could step back on the third frame, which I think would dodge 2/3 of the attacks, but I still get both of my attacks that round, which is pretty good. I could even step in the first and third frame to dodge all their attacks, and still get a attack of my own even though I'm retreating away from them at the start because I have that range...

Another option would be to give it a much lower base die for the to-hit, or make it more effected by evasion/resistance- but that brings in other balance issues.
Ranged Attacks
Ranged damage is approximately halved.
All ranged weapons have a reload parameter
Evasion adds 2 to the upper bound of the die against ranged attacks
I feel like ranged attacks need an explicit niche to function. Light attacks are safer, needling attacks. Heavy attacks are more devastating but harder to pull off. Ranged attacks are... not in melee. Without a solid identity to work towards, they're probably always going to be wonky.

Edit: Also considering increasing player health slightly as well as moving the +3 from vigor to a +5.
HP vs defenses is always a weird decision, and in this case it's especially weird because HP can't be recovered. I'm not sure what to think, but I find it hard to believe 5 hp will be able to compete with most of the other benefits.

Both good points. Sadly, at this point it would seem that ranged attacks serve basically to kill other ranged attackers.



Rule Changes for Next Round

Ranged Attacks
1. Ranged Attack Accuracy for dedicated ranged attacks is Penalized by 2(X-1) where X is the city-block-distance to target. Basically, there's a -1 penalty if you're 2 tiles away, -2 for for 3, -4 for 4, and so on.
2. Ranged Attack damage has been reduced by ~25%
3. Ranged Attacks cannot fire through allied targets. If you cannot draw a center-to-center line without obstruction, you cannot hit the target.

Resistance
The resistance guaranteed by your armor cannot exceed the total of your best possible evasion roll.

Vitality
Vitality improves HP by 5 per point.

Test 2




Spoiler: Enemies (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Bandit Stats (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Miles (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Hau (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Shorn (click to show/hide)



« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 11:55:05 am by Draignean »
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OceanSoul

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Re: A Quick Combat System and Character Creation Test [3 People + Suggestions]
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2017, 10:53:49 am »

1.Warmup
2.North
3.East
4.Block
5.Light Attack nearest bandit.

..maybe you could prevent/apply a penalty to shooting through other units to hit a unit? Enemies would then have to have Line of Sight on ranged units to attack, leaving openings for them to be attacked?
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Work on a potential forum game for my return to Bay12. Figure out parts that puzzled me before. Find more things to figure out that I can't. Work on another game instead of solving them. Get distracted and stop working. Remember it a week or two later. Remember I'm still on hiatus. Illogically, Be too ashamed to return yet. Repeat ad nauseam.

Finally have a game completely ready. Wait a week before posting it out of laziness.
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