Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LordBaal]

You want controversy? Star Wars can kick Start Trek ass in ALL levels.

[Starver]

Pre-Locutus Picard or post-Locutus Picard?

[martinuzz]

You want controversy? Star Wars can kick Start Trek ass in ALL levels.

Naaaaah, Star Wars is just another single episode Star Trek anomaly

[Frumple]

Eh, it's a messy question fond of in versus discussions, and a lot depends on what your preconditions are. All of star trek involves the Q, which star wars doesn't really have an answer to (though some stuff comes close), ferex. Galactic Empire/Republic could probably stomp on the Federation specifically just due to sheer weight disparity (the fed has a population of <1 trillion, the Empire had one in the quadrillions), but the greater star trek setting is multi-galactic in a way most of star wars isn't, and so on. Trek's got Wars beat on civilian technology and infrastructure hands down and handily. Wars has pervasive space wizards. Stuff just keeps going on like that, heh.

Realistically, if they somehow encountered each other, they probably wouldn't start fighting to begin with so it's a moot question

[Laterigrade]

You want controversy? Star Wars can kick Start Trek ass in ALL levels.

For the sake of controversy, I’m going to assume you meant ‘as a franchise and entertainment medium’, and, for the sake of controversy, I am going to whole-heartedly agree. Come at me, Star Trek lovers. Bring it on.

[Rolan7]

Alright, fine!

Sure, Star Wars is the only series to pull off a superior prequel story until Borderlands.  And maybe it's more entertaining than some of Star Trek.  But nothing in the Star Wars canon can compare to Star Trek Voyager.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I actually do stan Voyager.  It's far from perfect, but on balance I rate it up there with DS9 and TNG.

[hector13]

Paris is a properly insubordinate shit though.

In saying that, Neelix is one of my favourite characters.

[Starver]

Paris is a properly insubordinate shit though.

It's built into his character origin... First (non-space) scene of the first episode, IIRC, is that he's recruited straight out of detention for the latest low in a "promising but self-spoiled" career with first Starfleet then the Maquis.

Though his series-story was supposed to be one of redemption, he always was going to be impetuous. A different type from the non-Academy backgrounds of most of the rest of the melded-crew who came from the Maquis (often more individually disciplined because of less buffering against incompetence - never outright, rogues or they'd not be much use).

In saying that, Neelix is one of my favourite characters.

He's helpfully saved from being the "pet alien" by him, in turn, bringing Kes on-board almost as soon as he is. (A situation that continues despite all the other potential simultaneous candidates, and Seven Of Nine adopted later on, etc, even with her 'comedy naïve' moments. They did a lot to her to make her overcome her basic short-lived nature, including making her immortal, but I think she remained the pet almost all the time until then.)

I suppose he took on the Guinan role, for me, when not acting as native-guide or spiv.

[EuchreJack]

Hm, never linked Neelix and Guinan, but it makes total sense.
Is Doc McCoy from the original series the ancestor from the days when crew were limited in number by budget and biases (only the white guys got to give advice)?

[Scoops Novel]

Alright, fine!

Sure, Star Wars is the only series to pull off a superior prequel story until Borderlands.  And maybe it's more entertaining than some of Star Trek.  But nothing in the Star Wars canon can compare to Star Trek Voyager.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I actually do stan Voyager.  It's far from perfect, but on balance I rate it up there with DS9 and TNG.

Andor... compares.

[dragdeler]

There is a new brand of discourse gaining shape: people who hate super hard on AI generated art - honestly it reaks of insecurity - but what annoys me more are the neolibtardish arguments that are getting thrown into the mix. Copyright is NOT our friend... What's the endgame here want to claim ownership on something that's not even made yet? You want to patent a style?! Yeah sheesh great idea wait until the corpo overlords have a go at this one.


Here's is the based take on intellectual property: Publishing a work in progress without consent would amount to a severe breach of privacy, but my sweet summerchild, the nanosecond you publish something to the world it is not your's anymore, it belongs to our collective history and the conscience of anybody who got to perceive it. That's kinda the whole fucking point, rejoice in every impression, or don't and destroy them all, something will still persist. I get that people have to sustain their livelyhoods, but it's not like that doesn't apply to anybody who isn't an artist too, there is no law of nature that says people should be able to sustain themselves with the thing they prefer doing, or the thing they most excel at. There are things that could be done to amend such problems to give each their own, not everybody can hope to be drowning in success like toady, rightfully so I might add, but there simply isn't enough time in the century to give everybody their stagetime so to say, besides not everybody could manifest their genius in an obvious way given such an opportunity... So giving "their" legal arguments credibility (whomever "they" might be) is such a bad move, these people would lock the entire culture in cryogenic state only to extort a buck, the insane amount of control that gives them is just a free bonus on top, but the following chessmoves are little fucking more dystopic than not having access to all episodes of your favourite TV show.

I've had a few artistic endeavours on my own, and I accepted long ago that I am not owed anything, but rather that's it's an immense priviledge to be able to access those means of expression. The economy is fucked no doubt, but to me that is an allmost entirely separate issue.

I think people will get quite good at telling what's AI made and what's not, as AI progresses so will we, fads will come and go, and if it takes skill to stay ahead of the others, well there crumbles your whole merit based argument doesn't it?

Stuff will allways organize itself along a quality bell curve, it's not a question of merit, but a simple necessity of classification. The sum total of art increasing must allways be considered a win, but the real win here is more accessibility to means of expression. To argue against that most likely equals to overestimating your own importance in our cosmic voyage.

[Rolan7]

That sounds optimistic.

I've long defended the value of intellectual property.  I feel like there's a tendency in the left (the actual left) to want to decommoditize things, which is good in theory, but FOR NOW we have to live under capitalism.  Creative work is still work.

Under an ideal economy it would be available to everyone, as it benefits everyone.  Until then, can we stop pretending that pirating games is praxis

This episode of Trash Future gives a less drunk, more nuanced take on creative work.  Focusing on journalism: https://trashfuturepodcast.podbean.com/e/john-henry-mnemonic-ai-week-part-1-ft-james-vincent/

[McTraveller]

The concept of intellectual property has many flaws, the most notable of which are 1) once documented an idea is no longer a scarce resource and 2) it almost always results in rent-seeking behavior.

There are many ways to compensate people for their creative acts that don't try to enforce scarcity where no physical scarcity exists.  For example, musicians can get paid for concerts (which cannot be copied; sure a recording of a concert can be copied, but that's not the concert itself), or works can be commissioned.

And I say this as someone for whom a large part of their income is supported by intellectual property law.

[dragdeler]

Work is work sure. But what is necessary work? If the whole village plants potatoes, and you think roses are prettier, but come winter nobody wants to trade...

On the one hand I'm sure there are enough of artists who consider normal people stuff beneath them (I'm not going to mention honest work barf, is there such a thing? an honest salary for honest work? even if there were some examples to cite just nevermind about honest work too idealistic of a notion...) no just normal stuff like leaving a place like you found it, or threating catering personal as humans. Even if they were shitting gold it's not up to others to pick it up behind them.

On the other hand if art needs to sell, and also if art can sell for a lot sometimes, there will be all kinds of personas and institutions stealing attention for questionable contributions.


There is no solution in here to small artists problems, I know that and I don't pretend to. It's just when I hear people going on like: "I spent this much on equip, I spent this many years learning, I quit my dayjob, I deserve blabla" empathy instantly leaves my body and I'm like "yup all these things you did for yourself, I wish you best luck but nobody owes you shit".





But honestly we didn't need to go as far as me being an asshole about piracy. I think with AI generated art the argument is extremly shallow that something would constitute a copyright infringment, even if images served as training, the output is by it's nature "transformative" as stipulated by fair use. Them acquiring your art for their database illegally would be reason for a raised finger at best, we only punish those who redistribute for financial gain. But let's be honest if they did just fine with the low res files freely available on your portfolio, that's though luck lol. I think the far better move would be to claim right to the AI since you helped train it, "well ok let me go tit for tat with the AI into infinity if that's so, you made mine yours, I'll make your's mine, we shall refine our styles ad infinitum", instead of "you owe me because I learned a thing nobody asked me to".


Oh obligatory, he posts so rarely there is chance if you know hbomberguy you still didn't notice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0twDETh6QaI

[McTraveller]

Well yes that's the crux of it isn't it? Digging random holes in your yard, even though unquestionably "work", doesn't oblige society to give you anything for it. All it can guarantee is holes in your yard.

If you don't do work because you want or need the results of the work, and you don't do work because someone paid you to do it,  but are merely hoping someone will pay you for it in the future... that's risky behavior.