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[Frumple]

So I will refine my argument: I don't have trouble with people quitting shitty jobs - I have trouble with them quitting a shitty job and not looking for (or creating) a better one.  And no, sorry, I don't believe that "but there are no good jobs" or "all owners are greedy assholes" is true.

I mean, okay, then you largely don't have a problem. People aren't exactly entirely disconnecting with the labor market to any meaningful degree -- the vast majority of folks walking out of shit jobs are going on to either look for better work or train for a new field. They still have to eat, and most places in the world you can't exactly live well on the local safety nets... barring the people just dying, I guess. They don't eat 'cause their country decided them dying was better for the social good than not.

To the extent complete disconnection actually is something happen, they're disconnecting from the paid labor market in order to do shit like take care of family, kids, elderly, disabled, whatever. Which says more about how fucking abysmally most countries value caretakers or domestic laborers than anything about work ethic.

[McTraveller]

The people wanting food and other convenience services are not going to just die.  They are going to still exist. That demand will be there.  What will change, is the pricing curve.

Right, you're talking about the business cycle... which has a large component of leaving things unchanged except for the pricing curves, the exception being when there is some new technology that changes real productivity (not productivity measured in currency units).

I'd like to see the business cycle broken - so we have meaningful sustained increases in standard of living (which should be the real thing we care about, not wages, although sometimes they do track together).  I guess I'm a Romantic when it comes to this.

To the extent complete disconnection actually is something happen, they're disconnecting from the paid labor market in order to do shit like take care of family, kids, elderly, disabled, whatever. Which says more about how fucking abysmally most countries value caretakers or domestic laborers than anything about work ethic.

Interesting thought - I can't find data to indicate what people are doing instead of working. I know the summer high school and college students aren't doing home care or anything else - that's the big part of the workforce around here that seems to be missing. I have no idea where they all went.

[Frumple]

I mean, it's a question you could look into, but have you considered folks that have gone through a tremendously stressful educational year could have decided to spend their summer vacation months... on vacation?

My first guess for "where had summer high school and college students gone instead of work" would be "vacation". Since, like. They're in between one probably wildly stressful semester and another that's likely to only be so much better? Y'know? Take a bloody break if it's offered and you got the means.

E: There's also no telling how many have shifted to some form of telework, for that matter. Probably other stuff, too, that could be making workers in that age range less visible.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I dunno how we started, but im jumping in*

On the whole, nobody wants to perform labor for someone else. People put up with it largely because it is impossible to change. However, I am consistently shocked that people think there is some kind of moral imperative to continue working hard or perhaps even harder the worse a situation gets, whether it's the usual shtick of industrialists and capitalists making lives worse because they can or because there is some natural disaster doing it for them. We do not live in war economies, our labor (on the whole) does not go towards any great or noble goal, simply the perpetuation of the successful creation and sale of mundane goods and services. While these things are nice, I see no reason to invoke anxiety, risk ill-health, or potentially our lives and ability to enjoy life for a select few individual's bottom lines. Working hard does not make you a good person, it does not define who you are, and I'm not sure why people take such pride in their ability to produce in the name of others.

First of all, if you are in a bad situation and can get out of it easily, why would you not? That doesn't make any sense. If conditions deteriorate to the point where people will leave regardless of whether or not they can immediately support themselves, why is the blame on the workers??? The workers are there to do a specific job, not to care about some authoritarian owner's dream of a successful company, no matter the human cost. Talk down to me about economics all any of you want, but at the end of the day it boils down to unregulated greed. People who do nothing demand a larger cut from the people who do something because they invested in the company or bought the shares, etc. In the modern economic environment there is no good faith to be had between owners and workers--even good owners could eventually be forced to exploit their workers unfairly, because success demands it. If you want to torture yourself, if you want to be the "this is the way the world is" guy and eat misery for a chance at more physical resources later, go ahead, but don't think you somehow deserve those things more than the people who said no, I won't do it.

Second, I will reiterate that your ability to work, your drive to work, and ultimately the amount of work you actually do is not a measure of your worth as a human being... in fact, I see it as the furthest thing from it. If you live in a world where you only accord humanity to those who are productive, shame on you. No one should have to earn their right to exist. If you are born, you deserve a good life, end of story. We will all naturally <<<do things>>> there is no reason to poke and prod and whip people into action, there is no great human endeavor to somehow "be better" or advance civilization, the most any of us should hope for is a good life full of expression and action meaningful to us, to go about it responsibly, and help each other along the way.

Finally, this modern economic idea of permanent growth is fucking insane. Let the world relax. Do it responsibly, but it let us all relax. Yea there will be problems we need to solve, individually and societally, but what are we all working for? Very little I can see beyond what should have always been our right to do, but is now (and has been for a long time) locked behind economic and political barriers.

rant over.

[MrRoboto75]

People are too selfish, spoiled, and and have no work ethic on top of that.

Reward hard work then.  Actually give me a raise for working hard.  Actually promote from within.

Do you know what hard work gave me.  More work, doing the work of two or three workers my level or the responsibility of the people above me yet no actual increase in pay or even a change in job title.  Why should I carry lazier workers on my back if I just end up with the same paycheck as them?

People want a job, but they don't want to work or something.  Or worse, they want to get paid and not even have a job.

Probably because for once in their lives, the other option other than putting up with your shit isn't dying on the street.

People don't want to work for nothing, sue them.  Sadly most jobs want to give them next to nothing, and minimum wage won't pay for rent anywhere in the US.

If slightly higher unemployment is better than your offered wage, the wage needs to be higher.  I guarantee doing nothing is better than any minimum wage job, so your job's benefits, including wage, need to be better than doing nothing.

But I don't know what you can even do with that money, because everything has a staff shortage.

Pay rent, eat, that phone/internet you'll need just to apply for the job...

[ChairmanPoo]

On the whole, nobody wants to perform labor for someone else.

Lets go a bit deeper into this statement: Would you say that given the chance any group of workers would rather establish a cooperative to do their current job than to keep working for their current employer? For the purpose of this thought experiment: it´s economically viable for them (at least a priori) to take over the business as a cooperative.

[McTraveller]

What I meant by "when things get tough, you have to work harder" is based in physical reality: if there's a drought, more effort is required to get a crop. If there is a flood or hurricane or fire, more effort is required for clean up and repair.  Yeah maybe that's a bit reductio ad absurdum to apply it to "everyone else here quit so I'm the only one left and have to do all the things."

I will reiterate that your ability to work, your drive to work, and ultimately the amount of work you actually do is not a measure of your worth as a human being...

I agree.  I would extend it slightly though - if you do choose to work, the integrity with which you do that work does reflect your character.  I don't care if you are a CEO or a trash collector, if you do that job haphazardly or lazily, that's what raises my ire.  Especially in the US - nobody (likely) forces a person to work for a particular employer (I see arguments for being effectively "forced to work somewhere"), so if you choose to work for say a retail outlet, and instead of being diligent and helpful you are standing in a corner sitting on your cellphone, yeah that's a bunch of crap.  I would, in fact, rather you not work at all if that's how you treat it.  I'd also argue that paying those people more wouldn't make them "better workers."

As for not getting recognized for exemplary performance - yes that is an issue that crops up often. I think it's a different issue than the situations I see around me, where there are people who are not even paying attention.  The key there is to recognize when exemplary performance results in higher sales with which to be rewarded, and when it doesn't.  I had a previous employer who was like "everyone please work more billable hours" but while that looked good in the short term, it just meant we finished our projects faster but burned out some of our employees - overall revenue didn't change, because our sales department couldn't get new contracts.  So unless "rewards" came from docking other people's pay (we were a small company, I know the finances, and the owners were not making much more than anyone else), there wasn't anything to reward them with, other than vacation.

Sadly most jobs want to give them next to nothing, and minimum wage won't pay for rent anywhere in the US.

Statistics never lie, but you can make them say whatever you want. First I was talking about teenager and college students, who generally don't pay rent so that's a non-sequitur.  Secondly, while the housing and rental markets are indeed fubar, the stat is that median rents in reported urban areas are more than 30% of minimum wage.  It doesn't mean that there are no housing options for single-earner minimum-wage households in literally every municipality in the country.  Not yet, anyway.

EDIT: Oh I almost forget: yes I totally agree that a sustained position is better than trying to get "always growing".  This only works, though, for those already at high standards of living...

[Magmacube_tr]

Cringy fanfictions are objectively superior to professional novels.

Change my mind, if you dare!

[Starver]

On that subject, dare I suggest that there are some good points with The Watch despite not living up to its original promise (and premise).

(But I'm not going to go so far as to say it supports your controversial idea, Magma.)

[Telgin]

Cringy fanfictions are objectively superior to professional novels.

Change my mind, if you dare!

The hilariously bad Lion King fanfics someone showed to me once prove that bad fanfics can definitely be more entertaining.  You know the kind.  Where the main character is an anthro half-lion self-insert who eats the characters they don't like and get with Nala, who usually also eats other characters by unhinging her jaw like a snake to slurp them up in one go.  Bad grammar and spelling are like the garnish on top.  The description of someone being "covered in boozes" (covered in bruises) and someone else having a "budge in her thought" (bulge in her throat, from eating Scar I think it was) are my personal favorite lines that aren't NSFW.

Then there are the ones like Waluigi's Taco Stand, where they become great memetic material.

[ArchimedesWojak]

Cringy fanfictions are objectively superior to professional novels.

Change my mind, if you dare!

To add to this.

Fanfiction is a lot more fun to write, i have been asked by friends to write stories about their edgy fursonas to which i have a lot of fun writing the most outlandishly ridiculous shit possible and i have a very strange writing style so the way that i write stuff is similar to the surreal bullshit that i'm writing which means i'm not ever going to write any professional stuff (i'm not even good at writing) but it makes the fanfics even more stupid and hilarious.

[George_Chickens]

Cringy fanfictions are objectively superior to professional novels.

Change my mind, if you dare!

I can't change the truth. Not only are bad ones way funnier to read than real bad novels, they're also better than the writing of many professional television shows now. My Immortal > Star Trek Discovery.

[LordBaal]

If somewhat we could avoid the whole "kill of humans for the lulz or for their own good or whatever" all high ranking politicians could be replaced by AI and we'll be all better, despite meaning the end of selfdetermination and/or freedom and/or democracy.

This itself shows democracy is flawed unless only the smart people with true interest in the general wellbeing and progress are allowed to vote... the general public is too idiotic and prone to fall for pretty words and promises of a easy life to be trusted choosing the destiny of an entire nation.

Or you know, there is always the choice of implementing something like voting license. Just being born in a place is not enough to trust you with such important responsibility. However if such thing is implemented in any biased way... then all roads lead to benign AI.

[Starver]

Or you know, there is always the choice of implementing something like voting license. Just being born in a place is not enough to trust you with such important responsibility.

"Service Guarantees Citizenship. Do you want to know more?"

I don't think there's a general desire (or requirement) for that in today's climate. Though it could be argued (by all kinds of people, for opposing reasons) that there should be "Civics" classes to encourage both significant participation and considered participation[1].

I only really hear about Civics Classes to some degree in relatively recent US school-based fiction, though usually it's usually conveyed as a "Why do I have to do this?" chore. (Like having to attend mandatory Sex. Ed./PSE but without the giggly bits, or also the Drivers' Ed. without the individual joy/fear of at some point being put personally in control of a ton or so of metal.) Totally outside my own experience, so maybe I don't understand its purpose and (non-fictional) reality correctly. There'll surely be some who take to the lessons like teenage Leonidas, or at least a William Hague.

I do know that if you ask random people in the street if they're against sufferage, they tend to say yes. That probably is meaningful.

Of course, making the attending of a Civics class a necessary qualification (to be part of the dēmos that by some means kratos) is a step on the way to having to Pass the class, and then its a few short steps onwards. But I could imagine arguments (and counter-arguments) to making Civic Qualifications necessary to even be ellegible for a selection in a Demarchy.

How about indeed further tying it to a Franchise system?   If you cant trust One Man One Vote (especially it's the autocratic version where The Man is the Man) then One Man No Vote might solve it.


[1] "You've got to think for yourselves! You're all individuals!"
<omnes>"We're all individuals!"</omnes>
<solo>"I'm not!"</solo>

[feelotraveller]

I do know that if you ask random people in the street if they're against sufferage, they tend to say yes. That probably is meaningful.

I'm imagine them looking at you weirdly, thinking, 'Another proponent of all ages suffering'.