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[quekwoambojish]

Assuming no accessibility to stone or metals (or mechanisms), should the fortress even bother equipping any weapon other than ranged weapons?

I got in an argument about whether solely having melee characters with a shield and free hand is likely better than any of the bone or wood weapons they could get a hold of for melee. I'm on the wrestler with a shield side. (Again absolutely no stone, metal , ranged or mechanisms allowed).

Edit: *Vanilla DF
EditEdit: *For dwarves, not cave-ins and pumps.

[Valkyrie]

Given those restrictions, I think your only options are wooden training weapons.  While modern training rooms do demonstrate that a wooden training spear can kill, I'm really doubtful about a dwarf-wielded one.  On the other hand, dwarves definitely do kill with punches and grab-and-shakes.  So I think I'd come down on the shield-and-fist side, but both of those are impressively poor options for a generic fort defense force.  (with plenty of skills, its easier to be lethal, and against some opponents, they'd certainly do fine)

(From my memory and checking the wiki, the only dwarf-made bone weapon is a crossbow, and the only non-training dwarf-made wooden weapon is also crossbow ... both of those being ranged weapons, they're presumably illegal.  Though even using them as 'training hammers', I'd probably still vote for the free hand, but it'd be a closer question)

[gunpowdertea]

Is trade allowed? Trading for ore? Trading for metal weapons? Trading with the filthy hippies elves? In case of "no metal" I'd try my luck with the elvish weapons (grown wood). And train a bazillion war dogs, like 10 for each dwarf. Your FPS will suffer, though

[quekwoambojish]

No trading. No depending on immigrant pets.

But capturing wildlife is do-able!...Without weapons or cage traps it might be kind of hard though haha

[slashnul]

If you want to see awesome combat messages... ditch the shields and just go fully unarmed.  They'll wrestle away a goblin's sandal then beat him to death with it. 

Its comical but not as strong as when in prior versions a broken toe would knock you unconscious.

[quekwoambojish]

Holy moly nvm...

Fortress was obliterated. Had early undead sieges in the first year before, but not like this.
40+ undead, armed with iron weapons and the other half were firing crossbows
Right when winter hit and I had 20 population

So much for the wrestlers and their trusty dog companions! Haha

[Pirate Santa]

I've had dwarves with training spears proved totally impotent. Unarmed though they can kill animals.

[Melting Sky]

With the above mentioned restrictions you should pretty much forgo using melee troops at all and make everyone in the fort a part of the crossbow militia. Actually, come to think of it, could one even run a fortress at all with no stone, metal or trade? That means no wood cutting axes and no picks so you can't even excavate a living space and have no access to wood. Without access to wood you have no carpentry and no fuel for a ceramics or glass industry and without a pick you can't get down to the magma for alternate power sources. With the stated added restriction of no trading this means you literally cannot build any form of shelter or build literally anything outside of simple crafts. I guess you would just have a bunch of dwarves sitting a field waiting for death?

Edit: I guess you could min and max your embark points to bring as much raw glass, wood and ceramic building material as possible and then use that limited supply to build a primitive shelter and then just hole up until something with building destroyer shows up and breaks your door down and murders everyone. It would be a brutal embark scenario because basically you would have to pack the entire fortress in on the backs of your starting 7.

[Urist McVoyager]

Oh, you could do it with luck. Modern no-points embarks can work. Break down the wagon, make a butcher, tanner, and bowyer. Butcher the animals, make a crossbow with their bones and tan the hides. Convert bowyer to craftshop and tanner to leather worker. Make remaining bones into bolts and pray you have enough for hunting something for more bones. Leather worker makes quivers. Repeat as necessary.

For the long term it's not so great, but you can survive for a time this way. Until the first siege, with luck. After that . . . IF you get lucky shots in and kill some enemy axmen, and IF the rules allow some slippage for weapons you've earned by sheer guts, you could potentially wind up with an ax for cutting trees and make an actual fort after a while. I wouldn't ask the rules to slip all the way to "If you killed to get it you can kill with it" but I would ask that you be allowed to chop trees with the weapons you gain. I don't think picks-as-weapons exist for any nation but site dwarves. I've never heard of combat logs involving non-dwarves fighting with picks.

[Melting Sky]

Oh, you could do it with luck. Modern no-points embarks can work. Break down the wagon, make a butcher, tanner, and bowyer. Butcher the animals, make a crossbow with their bones and tan the hides. Convert bowyer to craftshop and tanner to leather worker. Make remaining bones into bolts and pray you have enough for hunting something for more bones. Leather worker makes quivers. Repeat as necessary.

For the long term it's not so great, but you can survive for a time this way. Until the first siege, with luck. After that . . . IF you get lucky shots in and kill some enemy axmen, and IF the rules allow some slippage for weapons you've earned by sheer guts, you could potentially wind up with an ax for cutting trees and make an actual fort after a while. I wouldn't ask the rules to slip all the way to "If you killed to get it you can kill with it" but I would ask that you be allowed to chop trees with the weapons you gain. I don't think picks-as-weapons exist for any nation but site dwarves. I've never heard of combat logs involving non-dwarves fighting with picks.

Ah yes, so long as the no metal rule is allowed to be bent a bit to allow for you to be able to utilize the spoils of war then you could get an axe for wood cutting if you were lucky enough to get attacked by a squad of axe goblins. With the ability to chop wood you then can generate both building materials and fuel for your glass and ceramics industries which would allow you to build a proper long term fort. If the no metal rule is iron clad and includes the spoils of war then I think its just a bit too over the top.

[quekwoambojish]

Spoils of war is totally fine. The scenario came about from an embark with one axe over an aquifer, we also agreed not to hole in during sieges.

I got trashed before the year ended by a large undead force, so now everyone is going to get a new 1 season old version in the same world but different location (no tower this time).

[quekwoambojish]

Since the symbol of our last fort was lychee trees (and ironically there were lychee trees), the new fort's symbol is a lychee tree with all of our nick named player characters impaled on it.

[Melting Sky]

Good luck next run. My money is on death by lycanthropy. They are early game building destroyers and I don't see crossbow dwarves being able to take down a big werecritters in time to stop the ensuing melee fight and resulting plague. There's no way to turtle against building destroyers without draw bridges. I guess you could build like a spiral of fortifications and doors into the fortress and hope a few hundred bone bolts can take down whatever is marching in. It might stop some of the softer threats.

[Urist McVoyager]

I will always have a special place in my heart for the No-Pointers. When I was struggling to learn the military screen, I did a no-pointer.

I butchered animals, made a quiver, crossbow, and bolts, and set my one crossbowdwarf to patrolling around the stockpile while my woodcutters were busy. We repelled the keas that day, but that fort eventually fell to a kobold siege of all things.

[gunpowdertea]

There's no way to turtle against building destroyers without draw bridges.

Yes, there is. Floor hatches are indestructable from below if there is no alternative path to the top part. I consider this to be a bit exploity, but when conquering HFS I feel it is necessary (and for early FBs and other uninvited guests showing up)...