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Author Topic: Fallacy's BYOR 2: Game over! Post-game write up up.  (Read 100153 times)

BlackHeartKabal

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #690 on: April 07, 2017, 09:29:26 pm »

Back. Reviewing thread...
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doll

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #691 on: April 10, 2017, 08:02:10 am »

unvote
Spoiler: Claims (click to show/hide)



Well, here is my revised reads list:

doll
The one posting this list.
Not that 'old hag' was referring to the role, not to some physical self. I suppose I should have made a joke about coffee instead, since that was what I went in with.

The following players could have killed scum!TDS (or, according to him now, his partner) in the following ways, from what is claimed:
juicebox delayed 1shot vigkill
BHK 50/50 suicidal reusable vigkill
Cinder votestealing nightpower (mindcontrol-esque)
Literally nobody else at all in any way

TheDarkStar
Lethargic. Brief. Consistently pushing against the towniest players in the thread, but without making any sort of legitimate case. Constantly hidden from pressure by the shroud of his impossibly strong daypower. Claims daypower would protect partner as well, were he mafia.
His play is so atrocious that I want him dead, even though I think he's probably town. I realize that we're at mylo and that's not a great way to think in many ways, but it's because I actually do think that he's scummy (and not merely anti-town), yet I'm terrified to commit to lynching him because I can't bring myself to believe that he's scum with that ability.
He may have lied about his not being able to be lynched. Town may be hiding some serious role-removal power, or other methods of escaping his rules. Now that the ability is gone forever, we can't even check, and that sits even further in his favor if he is scum (note that he removed his own role power, though he could easily have done so as anti-town town).
I have only the pretense of his rolepower stopping me from calling him out and out scum (to the same degree of immense scummyness as P25 leafsnail, for those who recall).

juicebox
The scum that time doll forgot.
Through the entire early game, flame99 was an unhelpful player who contributed as little as they could and flailed around. So incompetent were they that it was thought that they were badtown rather than badscum by, you know, nobody at all and actually webadict even said that they were probably scum. I've had it firmly in my mind that flame99 was so bad that they were unreadable, but maybe their worthless daygame actually was malicious or they had very poor instruction within scumchat.
Recently, claims to have their bomb out. I know for a fact that juicebox visited TDS Night 2.
The bomb therefore should be on TDS, or there is no bomb and, for instance, scum!juicebox used their anti-roleblock power or something else similar on scum!TDS. I mention this because a juicebox/TDS scumteam merely needs to convince us not to vote TDS (because he has a bomb on him) or juicebox (because he has a bomb on TDS) and they win, because it's mylo. The bomb encourages us not to no-lynch because, after all, we're wasting a chance to get a mislynch on mylo.
Alternatively, the visit to TDS is of hostile intent, and juicebox does have a bomb on a semiclear player.
Juicebox seems like the easiest scum, and I'll be following up on this. I don't like how flame99 played, I don't like how juicebox plays, I don't like how juicebox has described their night activity today, and I don't like juicebox's target during Night 2.

Tiruin
Had a very strong D1.
Spent a very large amount of valuable time after D1 arguing with a virtual non-player in her interactions with TDS. This was purely legitimate and honest conduct, but it adds nothing within the context of an unlynchable TDS. Depending on how Tiruin's abilities shake out, I'm inclined to expect that she's town.
I need a bit more information before I can make a strong statement here, so for now I'll say; probably town

4maskwolf
Reliably strong daygame.
My issues with 4mask stemmed from unaddressed questions which were, themselves, illegitimate. Though these questions should have been answered, it is understandable as such that they were not given a lack of activity and the strength of his overall daygame within what time he has had to post.
Very likely town.

BlackHeartKabal
Reliably strong daygame, multiple externally verified claims, verified, excellent (town) night activity.
I fake townslips, so I'm not going to pretend I'm Jack AT and try to read an alignment out of a word or two. What I can say is, there isn't any purchase to call BHK scum. They just haven't got the sort of mistake that label needs to grip onto. They're town.
Town.

Fullclaim:

As I mentioned, I'll be fullclaiming soon, i.e. right now.
Here's my full claim:

Granny Weatherwax
Track/Watch (Night, unlimited)
Immune to undisclosed abilities (Auto, I don't know what I'm immune to)
Unblockable (Auto, I cannot be roleblocked)
Curse (Night, 1shot, for subsequent nights the target has 50% chance of failing night actions until they succeed once)

Night 1: Watched Webadict, nobody visited
Night 2: Watched TheDarkStar, Juicebox visited

I'm fullclaiming because I'm unblockable and Tiruin is claiming that they can protect me, so I have no reason not to vis a vis giving info to scum for night actions.
I've already all but claimed anyway so it's not like I had anything left but a 'gotcha' about my N2 action, except it was obvious that I watched TDS.
I want town (BHK, Tiruin and 4mask in particular) to know where I'm at, so they can work from the same frame (or better) that I'm operating from. Feel free to massclaim if you think that's whats good.



Questions & Comments

Tiruin
And we have no idea anymore and can't counter-check that or the scope of his ability now that it's destroyed. It's a claim that can be done anytime as the ability doesn't priorly...exist. In which I treat it skeptically because I can't see how that even WORKS unless it tacks on an EXTRA auto of:
> You're able to VOTE even in death.
TDS claims they have no abilities left, and only ever had one, thought at the same time that they claimed this they also were suspicious of my asking about their claim.
Tiruin: do you think TDS is scum? If TDS is probably scum, should we lynch them?
I'll take your invitation 100%, but before you commit to giving me it remember to make sure as to whether or not I'm getting lynched today. Also I don't know if I might be immune to your invitation, so that'll be interesting.

4maskwolf
Did you visit TDS (with a block)? Is it possible that Juicebox's visiting TDS had an effect on you?
Could you believe it if TDS were scum? Do you have a way to get around TDS's ability if he were scum and you were town(a kill or ability removal or vote redirect power)?

juicebox
If nobody thinks TDS is scum, is there a single reason we wouldn't lynch you today?




By process of elimination, I've left myself with Juicebox and TDS as scum. Tiruin is also a maybe, and 4mask is the less confirmed of he and BHK. Even so, my town reads on these three players (and, obviously, myself) are vastly stronger than those I have on these others, even taking meta into account (in the case of TDS) and my irrational fear of missing a stated mechanical opportunity (via Juicebox).
Before I put my money where my mouth is, and vote one of these players, though, I'd like to shake out any last mechanical information which may inform our options in lynching amongst them.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #692 on: April 10, 2017, 02:18:20 pm »

Assuming Juicebox's power will go off whether or not he's still alive (which I believe is correct? since it's just a delayed kill), he's the best choice to lynch because that way both me and him will be dead. That way, the town will have removed two suspicious people in one night. If by some miracle juicebox isn't scum and I'm not dead tomorrow, I'll be very confused (and probably lynched/killed the next night by BHK).

I should probably summarize my other reads:

BHK: His role makes no sense for scum to have (although he could have fakeclaimed), but he hasn't done anything really scummy. Slight town read.
4maskwolf: iirc less activity but not anything overly scummy. A null read for now.
juicebox: Really wants me dead. Since I know I'm town, that's a point against him. I'll have to read through his stuff more, though, to get a good feel on his play. However, I will say that his gambit seems more designed to take out an obstacle to remove an annoying town player instead of to kill someone he thinks is scummy. Notice how he asked for information from several people with the threat of a bomb but never really followed up on it (or even specifying what he wanted, which makes it really easy for him to say "I didn't get the one piece of info that I wanted so I'm killing this guy who happens to be town". Scum lean.
doll: Methodically went through the game. He could be scum, but I don't have any reason to suspect that. In addition, the odds of both doll and juicebox being scum are roughly zero because doll outed juicebox's night action and finds juicebox really scummy. Strongly town-leaning.
Tiruin: I don't have enough info to decide. My case on her evaporated with webadict's death, but I haven't seen enough to conclude that she's either town or scum. Null read.
TheDarkStar: Town, but I admit I haven't had especially town-oriented play. The main reason for that has been my role power - until I lost control of the vote, I was basically responsible for ensuring that someone was properly lynched. Basically, about half of the effort I put into the game was just trying to keep things working mechanically; I had to be careful with pressure-(suggestion-)voting because I controlled the vote. Even a little bit of pressure was easy to interpret as "I think you're scummy and you're going to die". I think this game is close to mechanically solved though, assuming doll really is town, since there are only so many reasonable arrangements of alignments to go with different claimed roles.
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doll

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #693 on: April 10, 2017, 06:37:53 pm »

TDS
For some reason I was under the impression that the bomb took two night actions to use, but obviously that's incorrect since they've called it a timebomb like a thousand times. I was going to say that you shouldn't be so willing to die but in context it seems like it's inevitable (or juicebox is lying scum, which would be nice)
If juicebox isn't scum and you don't die, we've lost unless powers (or TBF I guess) save us because it's mylo.

Also, BHK could only have fakeclaimed if he's scum with 4maskwolf. His information ability backfired and told 4mask BHK's night action.

Juicebox
Looks live I've been playing under a cloud of misunderstanding. There is literally no present reason for us not to lynch you today, unless TBF comes in or mechanics otherwise shake things up a great deal.
After all, if TDS is scum then we still won't have lost if we do lynch you.

Tiruin
Can you use the hide on yourself or otherwise avoid the scumkill?


If we can use Tiruin and 4maskwolf to reduce the night-killable players to scum (and 4maskwolf) only, then scum are forced to pass on a night phase and out themselves in doing so. We can also save and keep TDS.
This, of course, assumes that Tiruin is town, and that we want to keep TDS. We only want to keep TDS if we bring TBF in today, and even then only if other powers can't do enough work for us.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #694 on: April 10, 2017, 08:34:10 pm »

doll: Sorry about the delay on responding to you, I've been going through the process of joining the military and alongside my job that's taken a lot of my time.  Now, on to what case I had against you, or, as it were, some questions I'd like you to answer about some very strange behavior on your part.

Tiruin
Please do argue with me about TDS.
I agree that I'd rather like him out of the game, but I'm also confident that he's town, so I'm not going to vote him, and I am going to find it very suspicious if you can't build at least one other case during this day.
This is the post that bugged me, not because of the content but because of the lack of follow-up.  Because let's fast forward through the rest of the day and into the beginning of the day: Tiruin spends her time waffling around on how she doesn't believe we should lynch flame or cinder without giving a strong reason why, doesn't address you for the rest of the day, and, most importantly, doesn't make another case or even go through the motions of attempting to do so.  And then... nothing.  No follow-up.  You never followed up, you never questioned her, you never even talked to her for the rest of the day to challenger her on TDS.  And then, the next morning, you declare her a meta-clear townie.  This whole exchange is what perked up my ears, especially when Tiruin refused to respond to my question yesterday about TDS not being cleared as a townie, and it doesn't paint a particularly positive picture that you dropped such an opinion and took a complete 180 without any explanation.  I'll be honest, it looks like you were just going through the motions of casting suspicion without actually drawing attention to your implied case and then forgot about it later.

So, to give you a chance to respond: Why?  Why didn't you pursue Tiruin's lack of another case before day end and what made you change your mind on her being a potential suspect.



I also have a claim, since if we're going to start planning tonights actions we should know all of what is available.  I encourage everyone else to claim as well so that town has every bit of information they can at their disposal.

I am Your Average Joe

My sole night action allows me to choose a subject or field to study and gain a one-shot ability based on that field.  The base chance of success for this power starts at 50% and is modified based on the complexity of the subject and if I've studied a related field (or the same field) in the past.

I also have a one-shot auto that revives me through sheer adrenaline and determination should I be nightkilled.

Night One I used my ability to study trauma care, but the action failed (and I received some very amusing flavor text).  Night two I made to study trauma care again, but the action failed as I was roleblocked.



Of the six living players, we currently know what four of them did last night.  juicebox targeted TDS with his bomb, doll watched TDS, BHK attempted to kill doll, and I was roleblocked.  doll has confirmed both BHK and juicebox's actions and in doing so confirmed his own action (unless he and juicebox are scum together, which is a possibility) and my claim is easily verifiable by finding the roleblocker in question.  Which means, barring a double-action by someone (which there is precedent for in this game, so it's possible one of the people who are confirmed to have acted roleblocked me as well) it was either Tiruin or TDS who roleblocked me.

Tiruin, TDS: Were you the one to roleblock me?  If so, why?
Everyone else: If you have a double-action and roleblocked me with the second, why did you do so?



Now, Q&A time with 4mask.

4maskwolf
Did you visit TDS (with a block)? Is it possible that Juicebox's visiting TDS had an effect on you?
Could you believe it if TDS were scum? Do you have a way to get around TDS's ability if he were scum and you were town(a kill or ability removal or vote redirect power)?
No.  Fuck if I know, ask Juicebox what his power does.  Yeah, I could believe it, but I don't think it's the highest probability at this very moment.  Yes, technically, if I took action to do so, given that in theory my role can get me any ability I desire.  It would be delayed and unreliable, however, although it adds one more method of removing that ability to the many that currently exist.

juicebox

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #695 on: April 10, 2017, 09:28:43 pm »

@doll I did use the bomb on TDS, because hAs e seemed the most suspicious to me after D2. As to why I shouldn't be lynched: First of all, bad town play =/= scum. Neither flame nor I may be playing well, but that doesn't mean that I'm scum. Secondly, I was trying to generate content. Maybe I went about it the wrong way but at least I was trying.

Also I can prevent someone from being roleblocked. Speaking of which, I might as well fullclaim. I'm the demolitions expert. I can prevent someone from being roleblocked, and if someone attempts to roleblock my target, they blow up, which causes them to lose an ability.
I also have a one-shot time bomb which goes off the night after I use it on someone, and the ability to disarm this time bomb the night it would go off.

PPE: @4mask I guess you could say that, but I personally would like to remain alive.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #696 on: April 10, 2017, 09:33:04 pm »

PPE: @4mask I guess you could say that, but I personally would like to remain alive.
Wat?

TheDarkStar

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #697 on: April 10, 2017, 09:55:25 pm »

Tiruin, TDS: Were you the one to roleblock me?  If so, why?

I wasn't. I'm a vanilla townie at this point.

I also have a one-shot time bomb which goes off the night after I use it on someone, and the ability to disarm this time bomb the night it would go off.

Out of curiosity, what would you do if you agreed to remove the time bomb in return for not being lynched today (and of course if it goes off anyway you get lynched when I flip town)?
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doll

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #698 on: April 11, 2017, 01:11:21 am »

Tiruin
Please do argue with me about TDS.
I agree that I'd rather like him out of the game, but I'm also confident that he's town, so I'm not going to vote him, and I am going to find it very suspicious if you can't build at least one other case during this day.
This is the post that bugged me, not because of the content but because of the lack of follow-up.  Because let's fast forward through the rest of the day and into the beginning of the day: Tiruin spends her time waffling around on how she doesn't believe we should lynch flame or cinder without giving a strong reason why, doesn't address you for the rest of the day, and, most importantly, doesn't make another case or even go through the motions of attempting to do so.  And then... nothing.  No follow-up.  You never followed up, you never questioned her, you never even talked to her for the rest of the day to challenger her on TDS.  And then, the next morning, you declare her a meta-clear townie.  This whole exchange is what perked up my ears, especially when Tiruin refused to respond to my question yesterday about TDS not being cleared as a townie, and it doesn't paint a particularly positive picture that you dropped such an opinion and took a complete 180 without any explanation.  I'll be honest, it looks like you were just going through the motions of casting suspicion without actually drawing attention to your implied case and then forgot about it later.

So, to give you a chance to respond: Why?  Why didn't you pursue Tiruin's lack of another case before day end and what made you change your mind on her being a potential suspect.
I was never suspicious of Tiruin, even though I was making a case against her.
You could say that I was pushing on her for being anti-town, and lost sight of her once scum presented itself. This isn't quite true; I was making a case for the sake of making a case in and of itself. Tiruin happened to be the best target, because she was playing against the town through a lack of helpful activity. Once something was actually happening in the daygame, I moved on to that.
I'll be honest, it looks like you were just going through the motions of casting suspicion without actually drawing attention to your implied case and then forgot about it later.
This is precisely correct.

To give a more in depth explanation of that post:
Prior to that post, I was more or less trapped in RVS. Flame99 and Cinder, BHK's early D1, the lack of a D1 lynch, the non-cases on Webadict and Tiruin, and Cinder's roleclaim & slot machine debacle hadn't actually contributed much at all to the daygame. I was entering a new game and establishing my space, which means I needed to establish my image as town. To do so, I needed to build cases. I went through the motions of building a case, in the simplest way possible. I tunneled easy players, who, as I mentioned in that post, I didn't expect to be scum together and who I had no strong reads on (i.e. these players were anti-town rather than scummy).
Simply going through the motions of building a case made me look more towny, but it also left me in a good position to follow up on these cases (which, as you mentioned, I never did for Tiruin) and make it easier to A) drive through a lynch on these players and B) encourage day activity through pursuit of the cases. I did pursue flame99, because the (implication of future) pressure stuck, but that got cut short by flame99 dropping out and Cinder acting scummy.

As an important aside:
My present case (such as it were) on Juicebox stems from that above pressure on flame99. At that time, the process of flame99 dropping out and Cinder drawing my attention somehow transmuted my scum read on flame into an anti-town read, which is why I failed to pick up on the case against Juicebox until now when I reread the thread.


I also have a one-shot time bomb which goes off the night after I use it on someone, and the ability to disarm this time bomb the night it would go off.

Out of curiosity, what would you do if you agreed to remove the time bomb in return for not being lynched today (and of course if it goes off anyway you get lynched when I flip town)?
For future reference, shit like this is precisely why the two of you are my top scumteam pick.

juicebox
Speaking of which, I might as well fullclaim. I'm the demolitions expert. I can prevent someone from being roleblocked, and if someone attempts to roleblock my target, they blow up, which causes them to lose an ability.
I also have a one-shot time bomb which goes off the night after I use it on someone, and the ability to disarm this time bomb the night it would go off.
You are aware that flame99 claimed all this already in the thread (page 41)?
It's even in that list of claims that I posted.

Any particular reason you are unaware of the claims of your predecessor?
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doll

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #699 on: April 11, 2017, 07:04:04 am »

Extend
y'all got twelve hours as it stands, and could sure do with some more activity
Also, I haven't voted yet
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #700 on: April 11, 2017, 08:38:29 am »

"There's only so far I'm willing to wait before murderizing."

((Only one extension per day.))
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

doll

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #701 on: April 11, 2017, 08:43:12 am »

juicebox
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Tiruin

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #702 on: April 11, 2017, 08:49:11 am »

Extend!
ALSO VOTECOUNT PLEASE

Bluh x.x My time and argh. At least I'll be free in the coming days so hooray for more posts \o/

Tiruin
Can you use the hide on yourself or otherwise avoid the scumkill?
Public note that I've not given full disclosure of what that ability does--but a roster of:
> Doll
> BHK
> Juicebox
is part of the day action--I haven't finalized it so draw your ideas out. Problem is if I target Juicy, it may...not do him well in the night, but it will prove his action. :O

Quote
-TheDarkStar(?)
-Tiruin(?)
-Deus Asmoth -> doll
-BlackHeartKabal(?)
-flame99 -> juicebox(?)
-4maskwolf(?)
...Which literally leaves 4mask and TDS out. :^
Hum. To claim it fully or not to claim :I

Quote
Tiruin: do you think TDS is scum? If TDS is probably scum, should we lynch them?
I'll take your invitation 100%, but before you commit to giving me it remember to make sure as to whether or not I'm getting lynched today. Also I don't know if I might be immune to your invitation, so that'll be interesting.
It will not matter if the lynch target is invited or not because...err, it'll happen anyway, but the lynch target gets lynched o_O
And other than being publicly announced, wait I'll just fullclaim it anyway because hindsight bites <_<

> You won't be able to target others listed in the roster or otherwise. [You get REMOVED from the game. For the night.]
> You'll be safe.
> I'm included in it.
> Also we get to PARTAY in a night quicktopic together \o/
I can target as many folks as I can; however it is a day action. There is no timer as to what it does :O

WHY I chose to not disclose this [and instead say 'hide' or whatever] was because of figuring out how the scumteam would work if it wasn't mentioned <_< Then in cross contrast to the town given how many bloody kill roles exist and otherwise--there is obviously fakeclaiming rolling about with AT LEAST TWO OF YOU.
I mean me and web discussed this at length in which I target a sample set [including him] UNTIL I asked FoU (which was just nowadays <_<) and apparently 'remove' in how he worded it, different from how it semantically was written to my mention, was the same and meant no acting. Prior to that we thought that it 'puts them on another plane or dimension where they can maybe probably act on each other' because that's how the impression was when I detailed the ability to web, mostly verbatim.
Then it hit me that it'd do more damage if I kept it trickling in disclosure due to prior analysis as to *everyone's public claims and/or potentials, so there it is in full detail.
* = Updated as when doll claimed Granny.


Tiruin, TDS: Were you the one to roleblock me?  If so, why?
Everyone else: If you have a double-action and roleblocked me with the second, why did you do so?
I think I claimed jailkeeper a long time back, but searchword 'jail' doesn't bring up anything -.-
So I'll claim jailkeeper now :V and say I blocked your face because me and webbywebs discussed it in length in the webchat. Basically yesterday, I had 2 picks. You or TDS. My "evolution" gave me stuff that modified how I use my stuff so yeah.
Why is because out of all the folks--you and him were the ones on the list I haven't gotten much tangibility out of. Seeing that one post there about you talking at doll and my stuff on Flame and Cin, do recall that I had remarked fully and distinctly as to how I view them both multiple times. BHK and the stuff he did before too. Notes on doll//DA was had in turn. That's 5 out of the folks that were present before. :^

And I've extra notes on webchats but I am currently in the position where I'll do check it tomorrow because I'm sleepy as fishie. Because work does that x_x sorry.

I recommend a plan being set--maybe not massclaiming but plan making. :v There is enough softclaims set by folks today and beforehand that makes a plan being fleshed out--there is also the evident note of people fakeclaiming or not mentioning as best as they can (which is not-bad-fakeclaiming).
I mean seriously. All the kill abilities. :V And my evolution is bloody useless.

PPEx2 Aww butts.
...How long do we have till day end? I will SERIOUSLY HAVE TO RECALIBRATE THIS idea of day actions. Or y'know, not do it :V
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Tiruin

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #703 on: April 11, 2017, 08:50:33 am »

"There's only so far I'm willing to wait before murderizing."

((Only one extension per day.))
Why was this mentioned not ever? :-\
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 2(6/9): Day 3: Off to ply his wares in the afterlife
« Reply #704 on: April 11, 2017, 08:52:18 am »

"There's only so far I'm willing to wait before murderizing."

((Only one extension per day.))
Why was this mentioned not ever? :-\
Uh...Yeah...
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