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Poll

Ever been in a fight?

I've been in a fistfight, but nothing serious.
- 0 (0%)
I've been in a life-or-death fight.
- 0 (0%)
I've never been in a fight.
- 0 (0%)
I am MaximumZero, and I got in three fights this morning before breakfast.
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: April 02, 2017, 08:55:24 am


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Author Topic: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread  (Read 23017 times)

Aseaheru

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2017, 09:13:16 pm »

 As in number of different designs using it, or number of actual weapons using it?

 Thinking about it, probably both.
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Pwnzerfaust

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #136 on: March 15, 2017, 02:24:34 am »

Both, I think. Also perhaps in terms of number of rounds manufactured and/or fired, though I'm not totally sure on that.
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Kot

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #137 on: March 15, 2017, 07:31:23 am »

That would be Makarovs 9×18mm, the amount of it is, as usual with Soviet equipment, staggering. It's also proably the pistol round that kills most people, because sure, ganbangers with Glocks and various armies and police forces using 9x19mm shoot people, way more people died due to being shot in Africa and Middle East, where Post-Communist stuff reigns supreme (not saying it's only one there, but you're way more likely to catch a bullet from AK, Mak or even goddamn PPSH than anything else down there), not to mention stuff like Ukraine, Russian organized crime and regimes like North Korea.
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Sheb

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #138 on: March 15, 2017, 08:07:09 am »

I dunno, I'm sure the Nazi's 9mm pistols were responsible for quite a lot of executions.
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Erkki

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #139 on: March 15, 2017, 04:01:11 pm »

I meant the 9x19mm Parabellum. Most commonly-used ammunition in the world, if I remember correctly.

.22LR and the .223 Rem are both probably even more produced. 9mm Luger is definitely within the top 5 though.
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Erkki

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #140 on: March 15, 2017, 04:44:30 pm »

Ooh, I missed this thread starting A shame, that.

 Personally, I would love to get a gun(or eight), but since the place I live in has a even more muddled set of gun regulations than most, its a tad unlikely.

 On a controversial but non-political topic, which is better(in bog-standard FMJ form, fired from a bog-standard rifle length weapon, at ranges of 300-400 meters), 5.45x39 or 5.56x45?

Bullet behaviour in target depends on a huge number of factors including its construction. .223 rem / 5.56x45 has more kinetic energy at muzzle than the 5.45x39 with similar ballistic coefficient so its "more powerful", but that is not the whole story.

5.45x39 is almost 100 % military cartridge, and its bullet has a steel jacked below the surface coppering but an empty nose. The nose flattens to the side upon impact which makes the bullet tumble and yaw violently, making the bullet dissipate its energy into cavity(= wound) very rapidly, while the strong steel jacket makes sure the bullet stays (mostly) in one piece. Thats why its often called "the poison bullet". I'm pretty sure that steel jacket bullets also work well against soft body armor. One of the downsides is that while also cheap, the steel jacket cant be cast quite as accurately as copper alloys, reducing accuracy.

Your typical 55 or 62 gr 5.56x45 FMJ, be it civilian or military, performs in a fairly similar way in soft tissue. But without the flattening, hollow bullet nose, the behaviour strongly depends on the impact velocity and even angle. At very high speeds the bullet tends to tumble and shred massive wound cavities(except with even more kinetic energy), but once that speed drops it starts to mostly just poke a clean hole through the bad guy, which is obviously less effective.

Many 5.56x45 cartridges, such as most military ones, also do not use steel jackets but a very thin copper one on the lead core. If such a bullet tumbles in tissue(close range shot) or hits a bone, it tends to break up into tiny pieces. The ability of the bullet to tumble and yaw very soon after entering the target and then fragmentate and pump all that 1700 Joules onto the target causes absolutely massive damage disproportional to the caliber and kinetic energy compared to many other calibers and bullets. Such wounds are nearly impossible to clean and a torso hit is practically always lethal. From a 20" barrel you can expect reliable fragmentation from 55gr M193 out to about 150 meters, which is just fine for most purposes.

At 400 meters, you wont be getting fragmentation any reliably from any 5.56x45 FMJ cartridge and gun combination but you'll still retain kinetic energy, ballistic arc's flatness and accuracy(caliber and gun depending) edge over a 5.45x39 firearm. 5.56x45 Rem ammo OTOH is slightly heavier, but I do believe its more multi purpose.
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Neonivek

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #141 on: March 15, 2017, 04:50:19 pm »

Hey if you were trying to shoot someone non-lethally where would you shoot them?

I know the leg and arm are no good...

But... would hand and foot be a safer bet?
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Erkki

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #142 on: March 15, 2017, 04:53:40 pm »

Hey if you were trying to shoot someone non-lethally where would you shoot them?

I know the leg and arm are no good...

But... would hand and foot be a safer bet?

If you really need to, the feet. Also puts bystanders at least danger. Ideally, you shoot only to warn or to kill because if you miss that limb or other extremety(that may be in motion, too) and the bad guy has a knife or gun of his own, you're dead.
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Hanslanda

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #143 on: March 15, 2017, 04:55:20 pm »

Yeah if you're firing a gun you've basically already passed the point where non-lethal is an option.
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Kot

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #144 on: March 15, 2017, 08:47:03 pm »

I dunno, I'm sure the Nazi's 9mm pistols were responsible for quite a lot of executions.
Nowhere close to Chinese and the rest, though, I suppose. I mean, Nazis had gas chambers, and places like North Korea executes people with anti-aircraft cannons. There's a slight difference in the approach.
Although Chinese favour the AK, I belive I've got a picture of Chinese training on how to execute a person with it lying somewhere on my hard drive.

Hey if you were trying to shoot someone non-lethally where would you shoot them?

I know the leg and arm are no good...

But... would hand and foot be a safer bet?
Well, considering people don't like being shoot at, precise aiming at fast moving bodyparts like arms and feet isin't really viable. Spray down on the legs, while the dude can easily bleed out if you hit major blood vessels, you still have chance to maybe save his ass.
Speaking of ass, ass.
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Erkki

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #145 on: March 16, 2017, 05:54:07 am »

Some SAKO .223s of mine. As you could have probably guessed already, I'm a fan of the caliber. My next gun will be another 22LR though.
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Neonivek

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2017, 07:32:42 am »

Well yes I am quite aware that if you are trying to shoot someone non-lethally you would want to shoot them... In the nothing.

Typically just shooting to show you are more than willing to use the gun.

I was just wondering if there was a spot you could somewhat reliably shoot someone (if they were like... letting you) where they wouldn't die that wasn't like... the ears or nose or some bodypart that is really small.
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Erkki

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2017, 07:51:04 am »

You could load shotgun shells with say half or less powder and use play-doh for projectile... Then just shoot center of mass.
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Tack

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2017, 07:56:56 am »

Can't believe I nearly missed a weapons thread.
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Kot

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Re: The Guns, Weapons, and Tactics Thread
« Reply #149 on: March 16, 2017, 08:07:26 am »

I was just wondering if there was a spot you could somewhat reliably shoot someone (if they were like... letting you) where they wouldn't die that wasn't like... the ears or nose or some bodypart that is really small.
Proably a place where bullet can pass straight through, provided you can't hit anything really important - shoulder, thights, etc. You would still have to stop the bleeding in some way.
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