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[Godlysockpuppet]

Title says it all. I'm dumbfounded. I'm using my own mods, but they only add new subterranean creatures and I haven't touched kobolds in the slightest.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

//Edit: further analysis also reveals they've taken a nearby elven forest retreat too.

[kingsableye]

I've seen this happen a number of times. Kobolds are much weaker than the other races, but they can engage in site claiming/reclaiming like any other civilization. I'm not sure if the Kobolds killed the previous owners (who were likely weakened by a rampage or war with a more powerful foe) or if they claimed the site after everyone else died in it.

[Godlysockpuppet]

I've seen this happen a number of times. Kobolds are much weaker than the other races, but they can engage in site claiming/reclaiming like any other civilization. I'm not sure if the Kobolds killed the previous owners (who were likely weakened by a rampage or war with a more powerful foe) or if they claimed the site after everyone else died in it.

Kobolds (afaik) don't use the roaming army mechanic though due to a lack of leader position in their entity file, so are they even able to take sites?

[Shonai_Dweller]

They take abandoned sites mostly. Maybe site reclaims don't require a wandering army yet?

[muldrake]

I've seen this happen a number of times. Kobolds are much weaker than the other races, but they can engage in site claiming/reclaiming like any other civilization. I'm not sure if the Kobolds killed the previous owners (who were likely weakened by a rampage or war with a more powerful foe) or if they claimed the site after everyone else died in it.

I've had a kobold be the guy representing a human civilization before.  Kobolds hadn't actually taken over the civilization, though.

[kingsableye]

I think you're right GSP, which is why I was leaning towards them scooping up the site post-abandonment. Kobolds can't engage in politics yet so I think they're stuck with site reclaiming (which can be done by any "Group", right? Kobold civilization is a strange thing, and I hope Toady expands it a little bit and tucks animal tribes into the same system so we can have some beastman "civilizations").

[StagnantSoul]

I think you're right GSP, which is why I was leaning towards them scooping up the site post-abandonment. Kobolds can't engage in politics yet so I think they're stuck with site reclaiming (which can be done by any "Group", right? Kobold civilization is a strange thing, and I hope Toady expands it a little bit and tucks animal tribes into the same system so we can have some beastman "civilizations").

So you'd like to see a group of olm men wander through with their cave toads packed to the brim with underground trade goods, bartering with the dwarves?

[Derro]

I've seen this happen a number of times. Kobolds are much weaker than the other races, but they can engage in site claiming/reclaiming like any other civilization. I'm not sure if the Kobolds killed the previous owners (who were likely weakened by a rampage or war with a more powerful foe) or if they claimed the site after everyone else died in it.

I've had a kobold be the guy representing a human civilization before.  Kobolds hadn't actually taken over the civilization, though.

Could you communicate with it, or does [UTTERANCES] still apply to kobold diplomats?

[kingsableye]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think you're right GSP, which is why I was leaning towards them scooping up the site post-abandonment. Kobolds can't engage in politics yet so I think they're stuck with site reclaiming (which can be done by any "Group", right? Kobold civilization is a strange thing, and I hope Toady expands it a little bit and tucks animal tribes into the same system so we can have some beastman "civilizations").

So you'd like to see a group of olm men wander through with their cave toads packed to the brim with underground trade goods, bartering with the dwarves?

That's the dream mate, that's the dream.
I have a feeling it would take a lot of tweaking, I think the beast races would often be enslaved/destroyed by the larger civilizations.
We'll just have to wait and see where Toady takes us

[Derro]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think you're right GSP, which is why I was leaning towards them scooping up the site post-abandonment. Kobolds can't engage in politics yet so I think they're stuck with site reclaiming (which can be done by any "Group", right? Kobold civilization is a strange thing, and I hope Toady expands it a little bit and tucks animal tribes into the same system so we can have some beastman "civilizations").

So you'd like to see a group of olm men wander through with their cave toads packed to the brim with underground trade goods, bartering with the dwarves?

That's the dream mate, that's the dream.
I have a feeling it would take a lot of tweaking, I think the beast races would often be enslaved/destroyed by the larger civilizations.
We'll just have to wait and see where Toady takes us

Thing is; I'm fairly sure only dwarves (and some kobolds) actually dig deep enough to reach the cavern layers. That'd restrict animal man contact to those two civs (or anyone taking over a dwarvish site, I guess), which would at least somewhat increase their chances of survival.

[FantasticDorf]

I've seen this happen a number of times. Kobolds are much weaker than the other races, but they can engage in site claiming/reclaiming like any other civilization. I'm not sure if the Kobolds killed the previous owners (who were likely weakened by a rampage or war with a more powerful foe) or if they claimed the site after everyone else died in it.

I've seen this, i even mentioned it to toady in a FotF post once. Kobolds jumped into a human halmet (i've seen towns/dark towers etc) and then stole the job roles and occupation of people living inside. I swung around batting away every kobold i could chase as part of a quest where apparently the abandoned town was infested with miscreants or some fluff like that but couldn't complete it. Just a bunch of wide eyed dopey civilians like threshers etc, not even any guards i could see (so still could be kobold role types, i don't know)

Personally i think its to do with faulty [CONQUERED_SITE] nobles or lack of them, where races who overwhelmingly conquer others without the relevant noble just replace nobles and eventually end up with a site leader transferring over control. (for example, goblins who become barons in conquered/refugee dwarf civs can't manually replace so put goblin barons in charge who conveniently are site ruling land owners aligned with the goblin civ rather than a flat out generic [CONQUERED_SITE] noble)

If the elves all get killed in a war, there are still depopulated sites still in elven entity control while the race still lives (once i had a evil civ human inherit the human civilization by founding a new town in control of the goblin entity when all the human sites were lost, probably a cousin to the prior law-giver taking the title)

Depopulated sites because civs prefer to pillage & murder instead of raze sites they can't use is a problem, and skulking civs launch "attacks" (which could be how they are getting in) on civilisations who have a lot of goods stolen. Kobold walks up to empty site with a very weak attack force = bam, easy takeover.

Alteast once also i think i've seen goblins prompt to declare war on a kobold held site, though its not tracked or detailed in legends so we'd never know (it was lower case, not flashy yellow)

[StagnantSoul]

Just saw an example of this, was walking into a meadhall and found a kobold just sitting where a lord would.

[FantasticDorf]

In that case, are master-thieves (iron daggers) tracked travelling over worldgen or liable to be working in this way? If you look at historical maps, there is most definitely a overlap of kobold civilisations, pinpointing the moment when they take a site is harder though.

I've seen this happen a number of times. Kobolds are much weaker than the other races, but they can engage in site claiming/reclaiming like any other civilization. I'm not sure if the Kobolds killed the previous owners (who were likely weakened by a rampage or war with a more powerful foe) or if they claimed the site after everyone else died in it.

Kobolds (afaik) don't use the roaming army mechanic though due to a lack of leader position in their entity file, so are they even able to take sites?

[kingsableye]

I'd say yes, most definitely. Kobolds can't send armies or engage in politics but individuals can still travel (which is how they end up in your site, trying to steal your steel low boots). I've read through Legends specifically looking at Kobolds when I was trying to make them more numerous. Their lives are not incredibly exciting but they go out and steal stuff and bring it back to their cave. Haven't looked into Kobold site claiming in Legends mode though (or, at least I don't remember what I found if I had).
If you go through Legends I'm sure the site-turned-Kobold would tell you the year/season it was taken over by the Kobolds.

[FantasticDorf]

I just got a generated world with three hillocks all next to each other took over by kobolds, nothing is out of the ordinary but a single kobold 'settled' in the site & it continues to be ransacked of items by the kobold theives regardless and the proceeds took to the main cave (which would be their 'market' i guess)

A larger settlement like a town/fortress/dark fortress would be more insightful for what's going on and how they react. Another good question is are they moving into settlements then stealing the goods they are producing?  If there's anybody there it must be implicit or atleast accepted for them to be there (buuuuuggy)

Working theory is that its thieves, or scouts are picking out and notifying the civ of sites which random civ members individually sit inside (because sometimes entity members when fleeing/scouting/wandering like to just hang out in places like tombs) and end up transferring, meaning the rest of the non historical kobold civilisation comes over and starts working on the site.