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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4150765 times)

Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53310 on: September 05, 2024, 12:43:56 pm »

No, because ideas can be beartraps. What would happen if some of these things are done is the outcome is being stuck in a beartrap looking foolish and hypocritical while being prodded with a very, very long stick. This is a bad thing, my friend. Also they are very good at this and many of our leaders very, very bad at recognizing and avoiding this.

About the US Steel, you are right, that doesn't seem to make sense. On the political end, it seems to almost entirely reflect a need to take a position that does not send voters in a crucial state to the other party. I feel this is because these voters have been misled, and from what little I know, to support a position that as it stands seems to mostly benefit a domestic purchaser and probably whoever may or may not be shorting the US Steel stock right now. Here is an old article, and one that has far more detail than contemporary robot rider articles. Seriously, internet articles are completely fucked up right now in the major outlets.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/12/business/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html

My guess why is because the Navy is probably going to get some shipyards up and running to build some new ships. Conservatives are starting to howl about this and use it as a club against the centrists, so it's a likely outcome. What we are probably seeing probably has an end goal of something like this: 1:stock price go down, short optional. 2: Major competitor buys commodity market by consolidating 3: Navy buys steel for ships at new, uncompetitive steel prices. Jingoists likely howl that it must be domestic steel, possibly pass requirement in law to force this.

I assume it will be laid out that if this doesn't occur that US Steel Must Fail and it's all those Dang Centrists's fault. There is possibly another option but it seems unlikely to be considered seriously in the United States' political climate at this time.

Another thing this is bad for is car manufacturers. Automobile steel is higher quality than random metal junk quality. Junk quality can be made cheaper in electric forges, smelters or whatnot terminology. US Steel largely uses the older and less efficient blast furnaces. However they do own some sort of electric forge and Nippon's interest in the company is purportedly mostly in the electric furnace side of things. I'm not sure if the electric forges are projected to take over for automotive steel production, but if so that may also be a motive for blocking the deal: to keep from having to upgrade existing capital to match a more comptetive process that Nippon is expressing interest in acquiring and perhaps expanding upon.

In addition this is a pattern of behavior that is being spoken about among foreign investors in a way that even I, a rube who reads news articles, am becoming aware of. This is because of things like the unlawful internet regulations being rammed through against expert and popular opinion when media and information operations fail to achieve popular support, increasing jingoism and willingness to engage in self-harming trade policy that seems to be headed in a more oligarchic path.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 01:30:53 pm by Duuvian »
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lemon10

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53311 on: September 05, 2024, 01:30:40 pm »

I doubt there is a material difference between "domestic" and "foreign" influence campaign anyway.

Does it really matter where the money or ideas originate? Shouldn't the ideas be judged on merit, not source?  Heresy, I know...
No, intent matters. You should not treat people arguing in bad faith acting with the intent to harm you the same way you treat people not trying to kill you.

Saying that Wormtounge has the exact same right to be heard after you know that he's working for Saruman and trying to destroy the country, and that his ideas should be judged on merit is fairly daft.
About the US Steel, you are right, that doesn't seem to make sense. On the political end, it seems to almost entirely reflect a need to take a position that does not send voters in a crucial state to the other party. I feel this is because these voters have been misled, and from what little I know, to support a position that as it stands seems to mostly benefit a domestic purchaser and probably whoever may or may not be shorting the US Steel stock right now. Here is an old article, and one that has far more detail than contemporary robot rider articles. Seriously, internet articles are completely fucked up right now in the major outlets.
Quote from: News article
But after an extensive review, the Treasury-led committee appears to have concluded that the national security concerns raised by the acquisition could not be mitigated, according to two industry sources who asked not to be named discussing sensitive deliberations.
On the political end I imagine its about national security just like they are saying it is. You want to have national manufacturers of war crucial goods, and even if the dude planning on buying all your national suppliers are allies it still isn't great for security in the long run.
Sure Japan is our solid ally now, but if we sell our steel production we can't really go back.
Realistically Japan won't turn on us and will stay our ally for some fairly solid real-politik and cultural reasons (*cough* China *cough*), but...
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53312 on: September 05, 2024, 01:37:30 pm »

It's probably worse if procurement is more expensive though. I also don't think national security is the driving force here... the production capital isn't mobile, and the product isn't being imported. If Nippon's goal is to shutter the facilities then yes, this would make sense but I haven't seen that anywhere. It seems to me to be kind of a cover for allowing consolidation in the procurement production chain in my opinion, and that can't be good for national security as much as it is good for investments.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53313 on: September 05, 2024, 02:16:57 pm »

I guess I consider "intent" to be part of "the merit of the ideas presented."  That is - an argument in bad faith is often also bad content - it's hard to make a valid argument in bad faith; usually bad-faith arguments have logical errors in them.
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53314 on: September 05, 2024, 02:34:33 pm »

Instead of looking at the "domestic" or "foreign" vector, look at the "overt" or "covert" vector... The difference between an ambassador and a spy is that one is transparent about their paymaster and the other is not. One advocates overtly and the other covertly... The Foreign Agents Registration Act is about protecting the right to advocate for something through free speech while forcing transparency of political/monetary interests.

Merit tends to be the natural result of democratic dialogue about "what is the best course of action for the entire group", so merit will usually be the result of transparent advocacy.

That Foreign Agents Registration Act was enacted in 1938, because it was known/believed that Germany was covertly buying US politicians, the propaganda, and supporting violent groups like the Silver Legion of America. I keep getting more amused about how historic events have been repeating.
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There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53315 on: September 05, 2024, 04:18:39 pm »

Quote
Instead of looking at the "domestic" or "foreign" vector, look at the "overt" or "covert" vector...

That would make much more sense to me.

Again, though, probably heresy... ;D
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53316 on: September 05, 2024, 04:52:33 pm »

I doubt there is a material difference between "domestic" and "foreign" influence campaign anyway.

Does it really matter where the money or ideas originate? Shouldn't the ideas be judged on merit, not source?  Heresy, I know...
It's amazing how hard this can often be for people.  :-\
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53317 on: September 05, 2024, 04:57:09 pm »

It is important to note here that Russian money isn't just funding Bad Speech You Don't Like. They're almost certainly pumping money into all sides of the political equation, with the goal of making every side a bit more extremist. Their goal is not pushing the US and Europe into a direction they like more. Their goal is to maximize the internal fault lines and drive the peoples opposed to them into chaos.
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eerr

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53318 on: September 05, 2024, 05:45:19 pm »

You shouldn't follow those words because they don't give a shit about if they're real, correct, and useful. You are just a tool to them. Believing propaganda is just a way to get misled and controlled like some sort of sheep.

I hope you don't want to follow the interests of the kremlin? suppressing people, giving out information as a spy, and spreading malcontentness.

If your interests run counter, well, I hope you didn't tell anyone.
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eerr

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53319 on: September 05, 2024, 05:49:00 pm »

I went to college, and hoo boy there are people who tow all sorts of lines there. There is most definitely some sort of conspiracy to expose college students to propaganda.

Actually maybe you should, if you want russia to give you money to make liberal podcasts. Who will you support?
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53320 on: September 05, 2024, 06:51:55 pm »

Donald Trump has now partnered with Elon Musk to create a Government Efficiency Commission, empowering Musk to audit the entire Federal Government and implement drastic reforms.

I'm looking forward to seeing my mail being delivered by a Cybertruck.
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StrawBarrel

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53321 on: September 05, 2024, 07:33:48 pm »

Instead of looking at the "domestic" or "foreign" vector, look at the "overt" or "covert" vector... The difference between an ambassador and a spy is that one is transparent about their paymaster and the other is not. One advocates overtly and the other covertly... The Foreign Agents Registration Act is about protecting the right to advocate for something through free speech while forcing transparency of political/monetary interests.

Merit tends to be the natural result of democratic dialogue about "what is the best course of action for the entire group", so merit will usually be the result of transparent advocacy.

That Foreign Agents Registration Act was enacted in 1938, because it was known/believed that Germany was covertly buying US politicians, the propaganda, and supporting violent groups like the Silver Legion of America. I keep getting more amused about how historic events have been repeating.
Interesting. i didn't know that it was created to fight nazism in the US before now.
Pursuant to the findings and recommendations of the committee, FARA was enacted in 1938 to target foreign propaganda and political subversion, particularly from Nazi sources abroad; foreign agents were implicated by the law regardless of whether they were acting "for or on behalf of" those interests. The law would not ban such activities but instead require that individuals engaged in propaganda on behalf of foreign governments and principals register with the government and disclose information about their clients, activities, and contract terms.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53322 on: September 05, 2024, 11:32:47 pm »

I doubt there is a material difference between "domestic" and "foreign" influence campaign anyway.

Does it really matter where the money or ideas originate? Shouldn't the ideas be judged on merit, not source?  Heresy, I know...
It's amazing how hard this can often be for people.  :-\
It's literally impossible.  Considering source is an important part of judging merit.  "Ignore the source, listen to everything equally and judge it all with fresh eyes forever" is insane.

A source should be discredited when it gets caught in a lie.  We did that in the past.  Now we have a huge faction saying "No, keep listening to ALLLLLLLL the noise."  Conveniently, that benefits professional liars and foreign agitators.

(I don't mean to imply that you're professional)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 11:34:55 pm by Rolan7 »
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53323 on: September 06, 2024, 12:37:37 am »

A truth uttered by an otherwise unreliable source is still true, and a falsehood uttered by an otherwise reliable source is still false.

If we were to discredit every source caught in a lie - willful or otherwise - there would be no sources left.

I did enjoy the reframing of what McTraveller and Max said though. Your inability to keep your hatred of Max from show and it’s manifestation as having to argue against everything he says, no matter how much you have to twist and turn his argument or yours, is incessantly amusing.
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StrawBarrel

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53324 on: September 06, 2024, 12:50:01 am »

replies
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162538.msg8546355#msg8546355
Yeah Biden did really mess up. The targeting of civilians horrible to see.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162538.msg8548247#msg8548247
It’s good to see that JD Vance is tanking the Trump election campaign.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162538.msg8550067#msg8550067
It is also funny to see Donald Trump meltdown on social media. ╰(▔∀▔)╯

Tenet Media wikipedia
Tenet masked the source of Russian funding through a pseudonym of a fake investor Eduard Grigoriann. Around February 2023, Tenet sought to hire two right-wing commentators with 2.4 million YouTube subscribers and 1.3 million YouTube subscribers to produce videos. The two eventually signed on, and "Commentator-1" and "Commentator-2" each received over $400,000 per month for producing political videos for Tenet. The charged Russian nationals, Kostiantyn Kalashnikov and Elena Afanasyeva, were involved in day to day operations of Tenet by fall 2023.
I think that it is very positive to see that this was uncovered by the US government. Hopefully this damages the Canadian and American conservative propagandists like Dave Rubin, Tim Pool, Lauren Southern, and Lauren Chen.

youtube video on the right wing uncovered propagandists' schemes
Tim Pool's 'Russian Asset' Drama Explained

Tim Pool’s Dad calls in at timestamp 23:58 of the video.
This conversation between Majority Report and Tim Pool’s Dad was pretty nice.
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