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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4435715 times)

anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52635 on: March 20, 2024, 01:25:59 pm »

The point I was making about "Colorado had the right to bring the case forward because the federal government did not" is similar to the point Texas is making with their new immigration law. Texas is saying that they have the right to enforce border law because the federal government is not. Are these both examples of a state taking action to enforce federal laws when the authority was already delegated to the federal level?
No. Colorado did not have any right to bring the case forward because it was intruding on a power specifically provided to Congress by the Constitution, with no obligation on the part of Congress in any way created. Since Congress had made no law in any way providing for Donald Trump to be removed from any ballot, no state could act to enforce any such law, nor does any state have the power to make such law on its own (which, besides, Colorado never attempted to do, as the legislature was never involved). If Congress had made such a law, states would in fact be obliged to enforce it; similarly, if Congress has made laws providing for border enforcement, which they have, states have the responsibility to enforce them, just as the Executive does as well. The difference is that Texas is following the established law while Colorado was not.
If things were as you say, the Colorado case would have been stopped before it left Colorado's Supreme Court. Why wasn't it?

Congress was authorized the power to decide "yes or no", but they also failed to start or to conclude the process. Why didn't Congress tell Colorado "hey this is our job, you need to stop..."?

Texas... Texas is challenging the federal level. Don't try to tell me that Texas is following all the federal laws.
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There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52636 on: March 20, 2024, 03:50:50 pm »

Wait, what? If the economy "collapses" because the interest rates change (or don't) then I would be genuinely amazed.  Or was there something else on the horizon?
No, I was talking about the fed meeting. It's a bit of an exaggeration, but it really is the difference between stagflation going out of control or a Vollker shock short-term recession, after all. :P
And I see (I just got back in just now) we got a push, that's what I figured, but man, it would have been better to just bring rates up a little more at this point. Drawing things out is just... eh.

If things were as you say, the Colorado case would have been stopped before it left Colorado's Supreme Court. Why wasn't it?

Congress was authorized the power to decide "yes or no", but they also failed to start or to conclude the process. Why didn't Congress tell Colorado "hey this is our job, you need to stop..."?
What? That's not Congress' job, that's the Supreme Court's job, and they did it. What would "stop" it? The Supreme Court is the one who has the power to decide when state action is in violation of the Constitution, and they did what they're supposed to do. And they do that job AFTER state courts have their say, as happened here - it's an established process.

Quote
Texas... Texas is challenging the federal level. Don't try to tell me that Texas is following all the federal laws.
Again, not how this works. Not how any of this works. Texas is "challenging", if anything, the Executive branch for not following the laws enacted by Congress. You had the whole civics unit, checks and balances, in school, right?
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52637 on: March 20, 2024, 05:34:13 pm »

If Congress had made such a law, states would in fact be obliged to enforce it;
This is incorrect. States are not, and cannot be, obliged to enforce federal law. That would be commandeering, which SCOTUS has considered verboten. Persuaded, certainly, by e.g. tying highway funds to drinking age, but not forced to enforce it.

In the case of the immigration law from Texas, there are a few things to consider.

First is Texas's argument on "invasion" under Article IV §4 cl.2., which on its face only imposes a duty on the federal government, and it's highly unlikely the border crisis satisfies the criteria for an invasion. It is true that under the Tenth Amendment, powers not delegated by the Constitution to Congress nor prohibited by the same to the states would be reserved by the states or the people. Congress has been delegated power to create a uniform rule of naturalization, as well as power to make all laws necessary and proper for the execution of the enumerated powers. "Uniform" would by definition make the power to legislate laws on naturalization exclusive, though the border crisis is not a question of naturalization per se. Necessary and Proper would also require some further exclusivity regarding the border and ports of entry. Additionally, the Commerce Clause (and its pre-emption) imposes additional limitation on state action, and the Compact Clause outright strips state power on various border questions that are inherently agreements or contracts with other states or a foreign power (e.g. Mexico). The Compact Clause is conditioned on there not being an invasion (or an imminent danger thereof), but again, the border crisis is unlikely to be considered as such.

That brings us to the second point. The current relevant precedent is Arizona et al. v. United States from 2012. It operates on pre-emption. Is there any leeway or loophole for Texas to implement its law?

What are the components of the law? There's a criminal component (10 Penal Code Chapter 51), enforcement and deportation components (1 Code of Criminal Procedure Chapter 5B), and an indemnity component (Title 5 Civil Practice and Remedies Code Chapter 117). I will ignore the indemnity and enforcement components; the former is irrelevant, and the latter is just a prohibition of enforcement.

The deportation component would run afoul of the Compact Clause, at minimum, and it's unlikely to be saved by an "invasion" argument. It would also likely be pre-empted by federal law, either by conflict or occupation of the field. Arizona et al. v. United States supports an analogous argument.

The criminal component criminalizes illegal entry (§51.02), illegal reentry (§51.03), and refusal to comply with an order to return to foreign nation (§51.04). Criminalizing refusal to comply is likely to be pre-empted per the previous paragraph.

Parts of §51.02 and §51.03 might be constitutional on their faces. A substantial difference from Arizona et al. v. United States was that Arizona SB1070 §3 was regulating the federal alien registration by criminalizing the failure to register. The federal alien registration framework was considered by SCOTUS to be pervasive enough to trigger field pre-emption. On the other hand, §51.02 and §51.03 at their cores don't touch any federal regulatory framework, though §51.02 does create affirmative defenses based on some, and §51.03 uses some federal action to pin down a timeline. The first comparison that comes to mind would be the state regulation of NFA weapons. Disregarding the Second Amendment for a moment, several states have banned NFA weapons and criminalized their ownership without running into pre-emption issues. So, Texas may even have written §51.02 and §51.03 with Arizona et al. v. United States in mind.

However, it is also possible for those sections to be conflict pre-empted by existing federal legislation on illegal entry. Yet, given the dual sovereign doctrine, I'd say its a toss up on conflict pre-emption. At the very least, if the federal government provides the state with no leeway on the time of deportation, then conflict pre-emption would require the state sentence to end the moment federal officers come to pick up the deportee. Given that there is already interaction between deportation and various other state crimes, however, I imagine it won't be too much of a problem.

Regardless, SCOTUS has merely judged on the injunction and not the merits of the Texas law.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 05:41:50 pm by da_nang »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52638 on: March 20, 2024, 06:41:41 pm »

This is incorrect. States are not, and cannot be, obliged to enforce federal law. That would be commandeering, which SCOTUS has considered verboten. Persuaded, certainly, by e.g. tying highway funds to drinking age, but not forced to enforce it.
Fair enough, I should have said "follow it". I meant, in this case, by removing Trump from the ballot if he were indeed judged unelectable by Congress. It's not in the same category of thing as the commandeering issue.
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52639 on: March 20, 2024, 09:48:09 pm »

If things were as you say, the Colorado case would have been stopped before it left Colorado's Supreme Court. Why wasn't it?

Congress was authorized the power to decide "yes or no", but they also failed to start or to conclude the process. Why didn't Congress tell Colorado "hey this is our job, you need to stop..."?
What? That's not Congress' job, that's the Supreme Court's job, and they did it. What would "stop" it? The Supreme Court is the one who has the power to decide when state action is in violation of the Constitution, and they did what they're supposed to do. And they do that job AFTER state courts have their say, as happened here - it's an established process.
Shame on me for having referred to the topic without reiterating it completely...

When people tried to say that a14.s3 can only be enforced by Congress, I said that Colorado did have the right to bring the case forward because nothing had been done at the federal level. I also said that, had something been done at the federal level, the Colorado case could have been shut down in its infancy while in Colorado by Trump's team.

Then you said...
No. Colorado did not have any right to bring the case forward because it was intruding on a power specifically provided to Congress by the Constitution, with no obligation on the part of Congress in any way created. Since Congress had made no law in any way providing for Donald Trump to be removed from any ballot, no state could act to enforce any such law,
.... etc

My question to you was, "If things were as you say, the Colorado case would have been stopped before it left Colorado's Supreme Court. Why wasn't it?"

What is your answer?

Quote
Texas... Texas is challenging the federal level. Don't try to tell me that Texas is following all the federal laws.
Again, not how this works. Not how any of this works. Texas is "challenging", if anything, the Executive branch for not following the laws enacted by Congress. You had the whole civics unit, checks and balances, in school, right?
We can talk about what Texas is doing after we get somewhere on the other topic.
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There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52640 on: March 21, 2024, 03:00:30 am »

Shame on me for having referred to the topic without reiterating it completely...

When people tried to say that a14.s3 can only be enforced by Congress, I said that Colorado did have the right to bring the case forward because nothing had been done at the federal level. I also said that, had something been done at the federal level, the Colorado case could have been shut down in its infancy while in Colorado by Trump's team.
How? What would Trump's team do? I don't think you understand the process here. There's no escape valve to "shut that whole thing down", the process for deciding cases like this is for it to work its way through the courts and up to the Supreme if necessary.

Quote
My question to you was, "If things were as you say, the Colorado case would have been stopped before it left Colorado's Supreme Court. Why wasn't it?"

What is your answer?
It wouldn't be, because that's not how the process works. You haven't explained why you think it would be.
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52641 on: March 21, 2024, 04:30:32 am »

I agree that the Colorado "decision" to remove Trump from the ballot was reversed by SCOTUS, but the Colorado "conclusion" that Trump was an insurrectionist and officer was not reversed. Trump clearly intended to bring violence to others for personal gain, and you have not acknowledged that...

SCOTUS didn't touch on that because they weren't required to in order to make their ruling.

"Clearly intended to bring violence" according to whom? By a jury of his peers? A mind reader? The Secretary of State of Maine? A few Colorado judges on an election case? Is Trump currently serving prison time for inciting violence? (Colorado convicted him, right?) You'd have to get beyond the reasonable doubt of "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard" and the common use of phrases such as "fight like hell" by politicians who aren't talking about physical violence. The use of the first phrase gives context to the second here, and I've no doubt that SCOTUS would rule this as Constitutionally-protected speech if forced to. You'd need some actual evidence of Trump's involvement in planning, and guess what.

At worst, you could say his inaction on the national guard was negligent or maladministration. (Can't even impeach on that.) However, we have the fact that he authorized up to 10,000 national guardsmen days before (expecting his supporters to be counter-protested) and was turned down.

What's clear is that he intended to have Pence or GOP Senators delay the certification, which isn't even close to a crime. That just results in temporary President Nancy Pelosi if it somehow lasts past Jan 20, AFAIK.

The point I was making about "Colorado had the right to bring the case forward because the federal government did not" is similar to the point Texas is making with their new immigration law. Texas is saying that they have the right to enforce border law because the federal government is not. Are these both examples of a state taking action to enforce federal laws when the authority was already delegated to the federal level?

And it's unlikely that Texas has that authority. They're trying to sneak around that by claiming an "invasion", which might activate other statutes. SCOTUS probably won't be favorable.

Congress was authorized the power to decide "yes or no", but they also failed to start or to conclude the process.

They had an impeachment and failed to remove, actually.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 05:02:01 am by Bumber »
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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52642 on: March 21, 2024, 07:44:47 pm »

Don't be a coward and claim you're voting third party because you don't like either, just own up to the fact that doing so is a chickenshit way of getting to vote for fascism and the end of democracy entirely.

It isn't a choice between two shitty options, it is a choice between getting to work towards a better future or never getting to choose shit again. We lucked out that the stupid orange turd was incompetent and had no idea how to capitalize on the pandemic to properly seize power. That isn't the case any longer, they straight up have plans ready to put into motion and complete the right wing takeover of the US once and for all.

Stupid assholes voting third party helped him win the first time, are you unaware of that?

Fucking christ man.

I'm still voting third party like (at least some, but hopefully many) others are doing. The two choices are junk and at this point, biden isn't really doing much to persuade israel to stop what I consider genocide. Sure he is trying to placate the crowd and give food to palestines, but he has (as of now) not outright condemned, or stopped supporting israel. Trump would be worse yeah, but why would I want to vote for two turds. One is just the biggest turd, but a turd is a turd imo. This could very well be the year a third party actually ends up winning and making REAL change.

At this point, having just two choices everyone only votes on is one step away from what russia does and only really elects one person. I guess two is better than one, but like...the bigger point...look at most european nations, like france, sure some wackos there, but third parties (and same in australia I believe, just examples) actually get a LOT of votes and makes a big difference.

In US its time for the two party system to be retired, and do what europe (and again I think australia) does and have far stronger voting bases in third parties. To me, thats a real democracy, not a pseudo democracy or republic or whatever lame system thats currently in place.

Plus maybe third parties can get 1 vote=1 person, instead of the dumb system where rural votes have all the advantage and city votes almost have none.

To add

People talk about change and improvement in this thread and elsewhere like reddit, but voting for the same thing each time isn't really change or improvement at all. Voting third party and enough third party voters, that would be REAL change and REAL improvement. I'd like the US votes to be more like europe and australia, vastly better system imo
There are not enough people conscious enough to make a presidential vote for a third party change anything, so you going against the flow isn't going to change the system. Have you heard of the spoiler effect? Your third-party vote is equivalent to giving half a vote to Trump and none to Biden. Think about that.

Don't be such a honor-before-reason idealist.
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52643 on: March 23, 2024, 01:33:38 pm »

Have you heard of the spoiler effect? Your third-party vote is equivalent to giving half a vote to Trump and none to Biden. Think about that.

It's a vote for nobody, because nobody's entitled to the vote.

Last I checked, RFK Jr's voters lean Trump, so if everyone was being so pragmatic you'd just be losing your protest vote. That sends a message that the two party candidates have you over a barrel and needn't do anything for you.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2024, 01:48:01 pm by Bumber »
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52644 on: March 23, 2024, 02:20:13 pm »

What protest vote? Republicans haven’t won the most votes for president in decades and we still have to suffer their presidencies.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52645 on: March 23, 2024, 02:35:55 pm »

What protest vote? Republicans haven’t won the most votes for president in decades and we still have to suffer their presidencies.

Red herring. It matters in which districts the votes are cast, but that's nothing to do with any point being made here.
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THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52646 on: March 23, 2024, 03:39:59 pm »

As a visual guideline for how much it might matter, perhaps look for the "little green men" on https://xkcd.com/1939/large/ ?

(I think I saw a county-by-county treatment, not from that source, but again based off of the rawest declared data... Could have been 2012, 2016 or 2020, with obviously subtly different political environments, but I can't remember in which context I came by it. And anyone can always crunch the numbers for themselves and filter them/present them how they wish...)
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EuchreJack

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52647 on: March 23, 2024, 04:22:34 pm »

So, it turns out that China is bailing out Trump.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/22/business/trump-truth-social-dwac-shares

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_World_Acquisition_Corp

Trump's Truth Social is going public by merging with Digital World Acquisition Company, a Shanghai-based and funded company.

It makes sense: China wants a sympathetic president whomever wins the election. And a contentious election in the US takes the attention off of them. Unlike the dumbfuck Russians, the Chinese are smart.

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52648 on: March 24, 2024, 04:32:51 am »

He doesn't get shit from the buyout for like 6 months, so it's not really bailing him out as much as dangling a carrot in front of the stupid turd.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52649 on: March 25, 2024, 04:44:38 pm »

Surprised the new Censorship States of America trend hasn't made it here yet... gotta love all these "protect the children" laws coming out that are really just more ways to monitor the citizenry and punish them (or threaten punishment) for things that are basically "moral fear" kind of stuff.
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