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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4434958 times)

martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52500 on: February 09, 2024, 09:13:41 pm »

Lol that Putin interview. It was mostly meaningless.
The only meaning I could get from it is that Putin was in charge of the whole interview, and Tucker Carlson looked like a 'only adress the King when you're spoken to' lapdog puppy boy of Putin.
Don't think that even his alt right fanclub will respect him after seeing him so powerless, puppetteered and humiliated. It was pathetic to watch.
I am quite sure that if Putin had asked him to suck his dick on tv, he would have done so, even begging to go a second time.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 09:16:15 pm by martinuzz »
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52501 on: February 09, 2024, 09:40:36 pm »

Hur's report was designed to put both biden and trump in the most unfavorable light possible for each. It is an apple-to-apple comparison that showed favoritism to neither. It is a good step towards keeping the institution non-political and towards making clear that other @!^%#@! politicians can and probably will be persecuted and prosecuted fairly.

The first step towards improving governance is to show politicians what "doing the job you were brought in to do" looks like.
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Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52502 on: February 10, 2024, 03:45:50 am »

-snip-
With regards to the whole "officer" discussion, one thing that wasn't brought up in the oral arguments was the difference in spelling of "office" and "officer" between the Fourteenth Amendment and Article II. Article II capitalizes them, the Fourteenth Amendment does not, yet Senator and Representative retain their capitalization from Article I. We also see that "Congress" retains its spelling, but "elector" does not.

This tells us it could not be due to changes in spelling rules (older English used a more German-like capitalization), for if "office" and "officer" were some kind of special title, proper noun, or legal term of art, then they would've been spelled "Office" and "Officer". This suggests that the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment intended to use the plain language meaning for "office" and "officer", and at least one contemporary dictionary ("An American dictionary of the English Language", Webster, Noah, 1865) suggests that the President is in fact an "officer", and by the of-genitive construction he is therefore an "officer of the United States". Similarly, the presidency is also an "office, civil or military, under the United States".
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52503 on: February 10, 2024, 04:24:55 am »

-snip-
With regards to the whole "officer" discussion, one thing that wasn't brought up in the oral arguments was the difference in spelling of "office" and "officer" between the Fourteenth Amendment and Article II. Article II capitalizes them, the Fourteenth Amendment does not, yet Senator and Representative retain their capitalization from Article I. We also see that "Congress" retains its spelling, but "elector" does not.

This tells us it could not be due to changes in spelling rules (older English used a more German-like capitalization), for if "office" and "officer" were some kind of special title, proper noun, or legal term of art, then they would've been spelled "Office" and "Officer". This suggests that the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment intended to use the plain language meaning for "office" and "officer", and at least one contemporary dictionary ("An American dictionary of the English Language", Webster, Noah, 1865) suggests that the President is in fact an "officer", and by the of-genitive construction he is therefore an "officer of the United States". Similarly, the presidency is also an "office, civil or military, under the United States".
According to whom? Deep capitalization lore is not a canon of construction I'm familiar with - capitalization just follows prevailing customs. Legal terms don't have to be capitalized a particular way to keep their definitions. Put another way – you still understand that "elector", uncapitalized — which is also the prevailing custom today, along with capitalizing Congress, Senator, and Representative — to apply to members of the Electoral Congress, not the plain language meaning of "elector" whereby we are all electors voting in the general election.

Some elements of a group being capitalized and others being uncapitalized also doesn't mean that they aren't meant to be taken as a group or don't share the same category of specific definition – unless you think that applies to, say, Federal statistics disaggregated by race, where you might see categories like "black, white, and Asian".
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52504 on: February 10, 2024, 07:43:49 am »

This is why we should have Engineers write (or at least vet) laws, not Lawyers, to make sure there are no ambiguities.  Laws should be subject to formal representation and provable logic.

I only half jest.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52505 on: February 10, 2024, 02:23:03 pm »

With regards to the whole "officer" discussion, one thing that wasn't brought up in the oral arguments was the difference in spelling of "office" and "officer" between the Fourteenth Amendment and Article II. Article II capitalizes them, the Fourteenth Amendment does not, yet Senator and Representative retain their capitalization from Article I. We also see that "Congress" retains its spelling, but "elector" does not.

This tells us it could not be due to changes in spelling rules (older English used a more German-like capitalization), for if "office" and "officer" were some kind of special title, proper noun, or legal term of art, then they would've been spelled "Office" and "Officer".
That is some chicken entrails mess right there :V

That's more likely to tell us that the original authors either didn't notice or didn't care about the inconsistency, due to the whole "lack of actual standards in education or language" that was common at the time, nevermind everything else that was going on that could mean inconsistencies like that cropped up. The constitution is enough of a mess talking about "intent" from aspects of its grammatical structure is almost certainly a mistake, heh.

Probably one of the reasons that kind of thing wasn't brought up in the oral arguments, really. You see slipups like that in official documentation these days, when there's far more agreement on linguistic structure, more eyes on, and literal automation intended to spot that kind of mistake. It's likely there wasn't any intent behind it at all.
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EuchreJack

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52506 on: February 10, 2024, 10:50:35 pm »

This is why we should have Engineers write (or at least vet) laws, not Lawyers, to make sure there are no ambiguities.  Laws should be subject to formal representation and provable logic.

I only half jest.
Lawyers don't write laws, politicians write laws.
Stop blaming lawyers for what asshat politicians do.

hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52507 on: February 10, 2024, 10:59:52 pm »

Lawyers make up quite a disproportionate number of politicians though. I think around a third of the folks in congress were lawyers in 2020.

Maybe it was just the senate, but I can’t be bothered checking.
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the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52508 on: February 10, 2024, 11:56:22 pm »

Lawyers aren't real and can't hurt you.
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52509 on: February 11, 2024, 12:00:57 am »

He read from his notebooks that he (quite reasonably) believed to be his property, not documents that should have been handed to the National Archives.

Notebooks containing classified information taken from official meetings:

Mr. Biden warned Zwonitzer, "Some of this may be classified, so be careful," and added, "I'm not sure. It isn't marked classified, but .... "
This is not a reference to merely private material. In this context, when a former official of Mr. Biden's stature and experience warns someone without a security clearance to "be careful" because some information "may classified," and then refers to "marked classified" material, the former official is talking about classified national security information. The evidence shows that Mr. Biden knew his notebooks contained such information.
There is also evidence that Mr. Biden knew he could not keep classified handwritten notes unsecured at home after his time as vice president.

The material Biden retained wasn't limited to these notebooks, either:

Quote
Our investigation uncovered evidence that President Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified materials after his vice presidency when he was a private citizen. These materials included (1) marked classified documents about military and foreign policy in Afghanistan, and (2) notebooks containing Mr. Biden's handwritten entries about issues of national security and foreign policy implicating sensitive intelligence sources and methods.
Quote
FEBRUARY 16, 2017: "I JUST FOUND ALL THE CLASSIFIED STUFF DOWNSTAIRS"
During a recorded interview on February 16, 2017, at Mr. Biden's rental home in Virginia after the end of his vice presidency, Mr. Biden told Zwonitzer he had just found classified material downstairs.

From context, Mr. Biden appears to have been referring to classified documents relating to American military and foreign policy in Afghanistan.

Outright admission by Biden that he knew he had marked classified documents. Mr. Hur prognosticates that Biden's defense of willful retention is that he immediately suffered amnesia at this point before he could call up his lawyers:

Quote
Reasonable jurors could conclude that Mr. Biden discovered the Afghanistan documents in his Virginia home and then forgot about them almost immediately. Such jurors would likely acquit him.

Seems legit.

I’m not the one arguing against the conclusion of the special counsel who has all the information, guy.

Heck, the article tells you why things aren’t going down the way you want them to.

The information and reasons for the conclusion are all right there in the report for everyone to see. If there's information missing, that would be an omission on the part of the special counsel.

Let's review some more excerpts from the report:

Some evidence also suggests Mr. Biden knew he could not keep classified handwritten notes at home after leaving office. Mr. Biden, who had decades of experience with classified information, was deeply familiar with the measures taken to safeguard classified information and the need for those measures to prevent harm to national security. Asked about reports that former President Trump had kept classified documents at his own home, Mr. Biden wondered how "anyone could be that irresponsible" and voiced concern about "[w]hat data was in there that may compromise sources and methods." While vice president, he kept his notebooks in a White House safe for a time, in contrast with his decision after leaving office to keep them at home in unlocked drawers.

Biden knew that even handwritten notes needed to be stored securely. (The Biden quote is from a TV interview.)

Quote
In 2010, the Executive Secretary team raised concerns about the number of classified briefing books that Mr. Biden had not returned, and the fact that, even when they were returned, some of the content was missing. These concerns were raised with Hogan as well as Mr. Biden's personal aide and military aides. E-mails indicate that the Executive Secretary team alerted Hogan to the issue at least in June 2010, when nearly thirty of the classified briefing books from the first six months of 2010 were outstanding, and in August 2010, when Mr. Biden failed to return Top Secret, Sensitive Compartmented Information (also referred to as "codeword") contents of a classified briefing book that he had received during a trip to the Hamptons, in New York. We were unable to determine whether these materials were ever recovered, although they were likely found and disposed of by military aides or naval enlisted aides.

Biden mishandling shit in 2010.


Okay, so why didn't Hur recommend charges for Biden? A summary for Biden's possible defenses of reasonable doubt start on p204 (208 of the pdf):

Biden is allowed to have docs in his Delaware home in 2022 because he's president. Need to prove what specific docs were in Virginia home in 2017.
  • First possible defense is that he found them in Virginia in 2017 but sudden amnesia.
  • Second is that docs were never in Virginia, but placed by staff in Delaware and there the entire time.
  • Third is that only some docs in Virginia, and those were no longer classified.
A point is made about the fact that docs were stored haphazardly in the garage lends credibility that Biden didn't know they were important. Mar-a-lago bathroom, anyone?

There's a point made that Biden wouldn't have let his home be searched if he knew he was illegally holding docs. Hur states, "While various parts of this argument are debatable, we expect the argument will carry real force for many reasonable jurors." Hur doesn't say what's debatable about that argument. I'll do it myself: It lets him plead ignorance without risking getting caught messing with the docs. It also let Biden's attorneys conduct searches instead of the FBI. It also isn't technically illegal for him to have the docs at the time of search, only before he became president.

On the docs never having been in Virginia, the only point is that there is no direct evidence besides Biden mentioning it on tape. Impreciseness of "all the classified stuff downstairs". ("Classified stuff" is still classified material, isn't it? Still a crime if they're not marked but you know it, right? See: The first part of this post regarding notebooks.)

All of this leads Hur to conclude that a jury might find reasonable doubt that Biden didn't willfully retain classified docs. But, wait. Isn't that up to the jury? Since when is it a prosecutor's job to determine reasonable doubt?

Lastly:
Quote
The practice of retaining classified material in unsecured locations poses serious risks to national security, given the vulnerability of extraordinarily sensitive information to loss or compromise to America's adversaries. The Department routinely highlights such risks when pursuing classified mishandling prosecutions. But addressing those risks through the criminal law, the only means available to this office, is not the proper remedy here.
For the classified Afghanistan documents and the classified notebooks, we believe the evidence falls short of supporting criminal charges. And other factors that inform our decision under the Principles of Federal Prosecution lead us to conclude that "the fundamental interests of society" do not "require" such charges. For these reasons, we decline prosecution.

"The fundamental interests of society do not require such charges."
Translation: Politics.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2024, 12:16:11 am by Bumber »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52510 on: February 11, 2024, 12:04:25 am »

This is why we should have Engineers write (or at least vet) laws, not Lawyers, to make sure there are no ambiguities.  Laws should be subject to formal representation and provable logic.

Lawyers are legal engineers. The reason laws are written the way they are is specifically to avoid ambiguities and edge cases. Problem is that when you have a blueprint over two centuries old you aren't guaranteed to understand it no matter how carefully it was written.

The other, more contemporary, problems you run into with laws are bad inputs due to flawed assumptions and "cosmetic" features designed to appeal to the layman instead of being "ideal". Both of which are problems engineers face quite often.
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EuchreJack

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52511 on: February 11, 2024, 12:47:46 am »

Lawyers also don't write the laws.

Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52512 on: February 11, 2024, 01:32:16 am »

Lawyers also don't write the laws.
They mostly do, in their capacity as clerks for politicians. Where they don't, they are then called upon to interpret the laws, as judges and clerks in the judicial system, in order to make sense of whatever hash the politicians made of it by not listening to their clerks.
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Maximum™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52513 on: February 11, 2024, 01:48:51 am »

Heh, lawyers don't write laws, no, they go dig them up from the law mines, smelt them from law ore, and forge the legal alloy into bars of lawmium which are then acid etched to reveal the words which become laws.

The fuck you think the best way is to become a politician besides shit like being a failed businessturd, get on a show meant to be a joke, trick yourself and millions of stupid fucking turds into believing your hype, and riding a wave of racism into office?

Spoiler alert: law degrees played a major role before "being a stupid racist asshole" turned into the main qualification for one of the major parties.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52514 on: February 11, 2024, 09:05:21 am »

Mr. Biden warned Zwonitzer, "Some of this may be classified, so be careful," and added, "I'm not sure. It isn't marked classified, but .... "
Notwithstanding the rest, which at least implies a degree of consideration, compare and contrast with "Hey, look at this, random guest of dubious integrity. It definitely is Classified..." (and, simultaneously, "No, sorry, actual vetted official with the authority to assess such documentation. You will not pass! I will not let you pass! ...quick, delete that security footage..." and the rest.)

The imperfections of the not-yet-President and current-President Biden, in his particular activities, probably aren't squeaky-clean. (Who can ever be? I'd probably mistrust anyone with an apparent veneer of imperfection.) But cannot be so easily equated with the past- and wannabe-future-President.

History will judge, probably, but current interpretations definitely matter on the way up to that point.
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