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[nenjin]

Pay attention to current events there much, keyboard warrior?

[Bumber]

Pay attention to current events there much, keyboard warrior?

https://nypost.com/2023/12/09/news/jewish-upenn-students-subjected-to-chants-of-we-are-hamas/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-us-hang-posters-hamas-hostages-others-tear-rcna124241

You talking into a mirror?

[Starver]

"Oh look, there is one group of people who have drawn ire from one side of the political spectrum that I don't like, as well as already being one of the objects of hatred of an actually more hateful group of people from the other. This feels liks it might be a zinger, if I ruthlessly avoid giving it any context at all..."

To be straight, here, I think it's wrong if anybody (left, right, centre, pink, blue, purple or puce) treats "The Jewish People" as a valid target, when the most you can say is that it's the actions of the current Israeli government that is problematic (and even that needs nuance). But you're not averse to putting people in huge baskets, clearly, regardless of whether it even makes the point you think it is making...

[Strongpoint]

It is an interesting phenomenon that the fascist faction of the Republican party is less antisemitic than American far lefts (actual far lefts, not what the aforementioned faction means by that)

I especially like the non-racist take of "because of wrong DNA Jews are not indigenous to Israel and should go back to Europe" coming from the left American youth.

[nenjin]

Pay attention to current events there much, keyboard warrior?

https://nypost.com/2023/12/09/news/jewish-upenn-students-subjected-to-chants-of-we-are-hamas/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-us-hang-posters-hamas-hostages-others-tear-rcna124241

You talking into a mirror?

No, you're just being intentionally obtuse.

Yes, the Left has strong opinions about Israel and Gaza. Yes, the younger Left might even resent Jews for it and do some stupid shit because of it.

Here's the difference:

Some of the Left is angry at the Jews for supporting what Israel is doing.

Compare that to some on the Right who hate Jews for being Jewish.

But go on, keep trying to tell us that the Left are the real antisemites. I'm sure a gold fish might be convinced. I sure do remember all those Liberals at the KKK rallies.

[Maximum™]

jewish people

lol. That's why Jewish students are being attacked on liberal campuses.

Nice try, crypto-fascists.

Wow, did you make one of those red string and pushpin conspiracy maps to put this together?

Yeah, I've been banging the "these fucking nazis can get fucked" drum for years, securing my role as a fascist-hating motherfucker, so I could secretly *checks notes* what? *looks again* are you ok? Did you hit your head recently?

Me: fuck all these people who support attacking vulnerable groups
You: ah ha, some liberals attacked members of a vulnerable group, checkmate crypto-fascist!
Me: fuck those liberals in particular then, I don't expect better from republicans but those on the left I do!
You: *tootles kazoo sadly*

Do you read the things you post before you hit post?

[Frumple]

It is an interesting phenomenon that the fascist faction of the Republican party is less antisemitic than American far lefts (actual far lefts, not what the aforementioned faction means by that)

It extremely isn't, though. There's a small but vocal minority of leftists that are heavily antisemitic, but their "heavily antisemitic" is literally "just in the same rhetorical bed as the far right". Don't let yourself be fooled by jackfucks that would happily see every jewish american in the country put up against a wall just because they've found some leftwing idiot to use a temporarily cudgel. Their opinions on jews haven't changed and pretty unilaterally remain somewhere in the same ballpark as "hitler didn't go far enough".

[McTraveller]

What are the odds of, and would it be an adequate protection, if we get (and can hold for 4 years) a Democrat majority Congress even if Trump were to get elected?

[nenjin]

Zero, IMO. If Trump wins the election then his base is motivated/demented enough to also retain a majority.

[Maximum™]

If shitler doesn't get absolutely wiped out it will be another case of him squeezing out a turd of a win in a couple of states, his popular vote totals are awful, and those correlate much better with congressional wins than the actual EC bullshit does generally. Especially considering he has been a massive drag on down ballot races. It could actually have been much worse than it is! Scary thought huh!

While his devoted twats will never turn on him due to--as was pointed out above--him being a cult leader at this point, that is not sufficient to win an election, and he needs to convince the elusive swing voters plus all the weirdos who are somehow undecided to vote for what will likely be a convicted felon who has hopefully been removed from numerous ballots by then.

[Loud Whispers]

Me: fuck all these people who support attacking vulnerable groups
You: ah ha, some liberals attacked members of a vulnerable group, checkmate crypto-fascist!
Me: fuck those liberals in particular then, I don't expect better from republicans but those on the left I do!
You: *tootles kazoo sadly*

checkmate atheists

owned by facts and logic

Thanks for explaining the context I didn't bother to

My conclusion is a bit different, that her actual words didn't matter at all and there's no point to respectability politics when one side is so post-truth.  But meh.

I think they're both good points. But I also think it's never too late for damage control, applied both ways. Like if you get an opponent who is willing to acknowledge your existence and respect basic common grounds of decency, work with them as best as you can, avoid using any langauge that could be misconstrued as demonising. If you get an opponent who is a total asshole, probably still shouldn't call them an asshole since that's not exactly going to improve things, but it's not the end of the world if you call them an asshole if you know what I mean? Just wait at least until the other side burns the bridge first otherwise there's no hope for jolly coop

[Bumber]

Here's the difference:

Some of the Left is angry at the Jews for supporting what Israel is doing.

Compare that to some on the Right who hate Jews for being Jewish.

Just so happens the ones on the Right aren't actually Trump supporters as a result. (See: Actual White Supremacist Richard Spencer. Compare: The nebulous fascist racists Maximum™ rants about that apparently constitute a majority of Trump's base and a significant chunk of the country.)

[Maximum™]

Ah yes, I'm imagining that people attacked the fucking capitol at his urging, I'm somehow mistaken about the idea that they support him even after he's been arguing he should be above the law, none of them take him seriously when he says he'll be a dictator and don't believe his claim of just for a day, riiiight.


Just for the sake of argument: what exactly do they get from their orange shitler that they don't get from any other option?

It isn't like he has any policies beyond "white people are the best, everyone should pretend it is the 1950's again, when black people and women knew their place and the US was on the upswing because Reagan hadn't destroyed everything good about the country foreigners hadn't snuck in and tookyerjerbs, and also I should be allowed to rape and murder freely because I'm me" does he?

Is there anything at all to appeal to anyone besides white people who feel insecure about the possibility that anyone they don't know or like might get ahead?

If they weren't fascists longing for an orange reich, why are none of the alternatives able to eke out any breathing room?

Surely if they were actually decent well intentioned folks they'd be eager to get rid of the orange tumor on their party, yeah?


Like, conservatism has been summed up accurately: there must be in-groups which the law protects but does not restrain alongside out-groups which the law restrains but does not protect.

The orange shithead wants to be the only in-group unrestrained by the law, he doesn't even pretend to extend that to his stupid fucking followers but they cheer him on anyways because *mumble mumble immigrants mumble mumble jesus loves guns mumble mumble* and...

[Strongpoint]

It is an interesting phenomenon that the fascist faction of the Republican party is less antisemitic than American far lefts (actual far lefts, not what the aforementioned faction means by that)

It extremely isn't, though. There's a small but vocal minority of leftists that are heavily antisemitic, but their "heavily antisemitic" is literally "just in the same rhetorical bed as the far right". Don't let yourself be fooled by jackfucks that would happily see every jewish american in the country put up against a wall just because they've found some leftwing idiot to use a temporarily cudgel. Their opinions on jews haven't changed and pretty unilaterally remain somewhere in the same ballpark as "hitler didn't go far enough".

Note that I said far left, meaning that I do talk abour extremists. Most lefts are indeed mostly critical of Israel even if I think that their definitions of "justified resistance", "self-defense", "apartheid", "war crime", "genocide", etc... not quite accurate.

But... What worries me is that folk who just want peace\stop Israel happily tolerate stuff that comes from extremists. Like "globalize the intifada" which is a call for violent terrorism against Jews worldwide or takes like "Israelis are white European colonizers in Palestine and should be kicked back to Europe" which is a racist call for ethnic cleansing and would be wrong even if it was factually true (it isn't)

Bay12 doesn't have (actively posting) people like that. Other places where I am active - do. And they are not opposed as they should.

[Loud Whispers]

Just for the sake of argument: what exactly do they get from their orange shitler that they don't get from any other option?

It isn't like he has any policies beyond "white people are the best, everyone should pretend it is the 1950's again, when black people and women knew their place and the US was on the upswing because Reagan hadn't destroyed everything good about the country foreigners hadn't snuck in and tookyerjerbs, and also I should be allowed to rape and murder freely because I'm me" does he?

Trump cut black & hispanic incarceration rate to its lowest rate since Bill Clinton and got loads of nonviolent prisoners released early and then tied his judicial reform efforts to his own court cases, making it a key point of his platform. Couple that with him successfully getting his name put on stimulus cheques he authorised, compared to Joe Biden's stimulus cheques which had generic US government heading, there's loadsa ppl who view Trump as their guy who gets them out of prison and gets them stimulus cheques in a way that Biden can't, since Biden didn't use government money to put his name on cheques and also supported the drug laws that started the war on drugs which got all these non-violent dealers and users thrown in federal prison to begin with

Is there anything at all to appeal to anyone besides white people who feel insecure about the possibility that anyone they don't know or like might get ahead?

Ppl who vote for Trump because they know politicians hate Trump and they hate politicians so they vote him in so they have to deal with Trump everyday

Same thing happened in the UK for Scottish indyref and brexit referendum. David Cameron begging the electorate not to vote the direction of our country on the basis of "fuck tories lol"

If they weren't fascists longing for an orange reich, why are none of the alternatives able to eke out any breathing room?

Surely if they were actually decent well intentioned folks they'd be eager to get rid of the orange tumor on their party, yeah?

Lack of any alternatives to choose for. E.g. most of the politicians who could compete with Trump for leadership of the GOP are those that have ties to him, so even if they run against Trump like Nikki Haley or Mike Pence, democrat-inclined voters don't like them because they're Trump scions, and Republicans who voted Trump aren't going to like them for obvious reasons, whilst it's not a good look to be someone who says Trump sucks, accepts a job in Trump's cabinet and then says Trump sucks again. Or you got candidates like Ron DeSantis who try to compete with Trump by going even farther right cos obviously Trump is too soft, woke and snowflakey to endorse real true American policies like lowering corporate tax, making death penalty even easier to pass without jury unanimity, and opposing aid packages to democrat states afflicted by hurricanes. Also he literally introduced a bill called the WOKE act

So you could probably also call it a lack of imagination on the part of the republican party. They either can't imagine a party without Trump, or an alternative that isn't just Trump+1

The orange shithead wants to be the only in-group unrestrained by the law, he doesn't even pretend to extend that to his stupid fucking followers but they cheer him on anyways because *mumble mumble immigrants mumble mumble jesus loves guns mumble mumble* and...

"What have you got to lose?" Realistically a lot of Trump voters aren't cheering for him they're cheering against the US government