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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4432954 times)

McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52245 on: January 02, 2024, 11:57:52 am »

The video mentioned that game show by name, actually :)

The bit about "be clear" was the one that particularly struck me as lacking in modern politics. Everyone is trying to be "smarter than their opponent" when in reality it is indeed actually better to just cooperate.

Interestingly, though, the analysis is that the the best anyone can do in the repeated prisoners' dilemma games is as good as the "meanest" player... and that even takes into account noisy and incorrect signals.

So if you do have a participant that is always "destroy everything", that's actually the best you can do.  Kind of sobering.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52246 on: January 02, 2024, 12:04:38 pm »

There being a homeowner to attack is pretty rare, though, isn't it? Even cokebrained twits usually have enough sense to just wait until the residents aren't there. Significant majority of house burglary is of unoccupied residences, far as I'm aware.

Signs of people being home such as lights or noise are often a deterrent to burglars, that's true. It isn't that uncommon, however, for somebody to think they're breaking into an empty home only to find that somebody was napping or just quiet, then panic.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52247 on: January 02, 2024, 12:14:40 pm »

The video mentioned that game show by name, actually :)
Oh yeah I just watched the vid, feel silly now lol

The bit about "be clear" was the one that particularly struck me as lacking in modern politics. Everyone is trying to be "smarter than their opponent" when in reality it is indeed actually better to just cooperate.

Interestingly, though, the analysis is that the the best anyone can do in the repeated prisoners' dilemma games is as good as the "meanest" player... and that even takes into account noisy and incorrect signals.

So if you do have a participant that is always "destroy everything", that's actually the best you can do.  Kind of sobering.
Always does my head in when people look up to backstabbing bastards as idols of realpolitik when people like Kissinger fucked everything up just to rake in consulting fees from China. Poor Machiavelli gets a bad reputation for encouraing "just backstab everyone lol" when he writes "betrayal will get you killed, be loyal to your allies"

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52248 on: January 02, 2024, 01:52:00 pm »

Always does my head in when people look up to backstabbing bastards as idols of realpolitik when people like Kissinger fucked everything up just to rake in consulting fees from China. Poor Machiavelli gets a bad reputation for encouraing "just backstab everyone lol" when he writes "betrayal will get you killed, be loyal to your allies"
Folks always seem to forget that "realpolitik" basically means "do stupid, shortsighted, usually just kinda' evil shit for reasons" and then get all surprised pikachu when the people involved with it do stupid, shortsighted, evil shit. Backstabbing bastards that ruin most everything they touch, like kissinger, are idols of realpolitik, because that's just kinda' what that nonsense is, a big ol' pile of razor laced shit terrible people have tried to gild with gold so other people don't realize what's being handed to them.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52249 on: January 02, 2024, 02:15:31 pm »

The thing about realpolitik as a concept is it usually means being pragmatic and ignoring one's ideology when it gets in the way of being effective. The positive image of this one thinks of is when one comes to a mutual agreement despite being ideologically opposed (example: a good chunk of why the cold war didn't go nuclear). For the negative of course, when the ideology or other "on paper" policies being ignored are things like basic common sense, international agreements, or the laws of war...

As seen here however, another layer to this is a lot of politicians don't really understand the word "pragmatic" and instead take it to mean "bumblefuck my way over everybody in my way to get a paycheck, consequences be damned"
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52250 on: January 02, 2024, 07:10:32 pm »

Folks always seem to forget that "realpolitik" basically means "do stupid, shortsighted, usually just kinda' evil shit for reasons" and then get all surprised pikachu when the people involved with it do stupid, shortsighted, evil shit. Backstabbing bastards that ruin most everything they touch, like kissinger, are idols of realpolitik, because that's just kinda' what that nonsense is, a big ol' pile of razor laced shit terrible people have tried to gild with gold so other people don't realize what's being handed to them.
Kissinger is the inbred incest baby of realpolitik. People like Bismarck defeating the Austrians in war, but then demanding no land from them is I think perfect examples of realpolitik as "pragmatic policy." Because he could have seized land from the Austrians, yet in doing so made a long term enemy of them, whereas the potential of an Austrian alliance gave him the freedom and flexibility to negotiate with the French, Russians and British who would not have a hostile Austria to exploit.

Declining the small, short-term game of gaining Silesia for example, they gained the potential of the whole state. Ppl like Sun Tzu or Bismarck advocating for trying to achieve your aims with the threat of a campaign, whilst avoiding an actual war, or ppl like Machiavelli saying that you should build a reputation of trust and loyalty for pragmatic reasons rather than ethical ones, miss the point by going full Kissinger. It is not brave or intelligent to betray someone who is not guarding against you because they called you friend, but somehow the whole message of "virtue as pragmatic" gets lost on the team killing fucktards. Machiavelli doesn't judge someone who comes to power through villainous, murderous means - but he cautions that if they were to launch a bloody coup, it would be best to eliminate all of their enemies in one day and then forswear ever resorting to tyranny and violence ever again. Because on pragmatic grounds, people can eventually grow accustomed to someone who is reliable, stable and stalwart, whereas a tyrant who never stops killing is going to have all of his followers thinking "am I next to die?" And he cautions again, that you really ought not to try gain power through villainous means, citing an example of one usurper who did kill all of his enemies in one day, yet was beaten to death by the townspeople who much loved the nobleman he had murdered. All examples of "look, putting moral concerns aside, pragmatic power must still take morality into account."

An army known for being merciless will fight to the death and can inflict terrible casualties on an attacker. Thus Sun Tzu advises either encourage enemies to surrender through clemency, or leave a way out for the enemy to encourage a rout. An ally who allies with a greater power to betray their weaker ally in exchange for short term gain (something Machiavelli personally witnessed often with the feuding Italian states) will soon be left with a great ally who no longer needs them independent; whilst the only other ally who can now help them resist conquest, is the one they just betrayed. Thus Machiavelli advises not betraying your allies, even when they are weaker than you. For today they need you, but tomorrow you may need them. Against Denmark, Austria and France, Prussia scored monumental military victories. Yet Bismarck restrained his own conservatives, hungry for triumph and conquest, arguing that an attempt to dismember and cripple France or Austria would simply leave them with powerful, irate foes, and at any rate the British and Russians would not abide by such a disturbance in the balance of power. The one time he buckles to public opinion and annexes Alsace-Lorraine, the same fears which cautioned him not to annex territory from Austria proved true in France: the French would accept any peace, except one which saw the loss of territory. And so for the next 20 years he contented himself with keeping France diplomatically isolated, securing concessions from Russia and Britain with the threat of action, and yet made no attempt to pursue continental hegemony on the eve of victory in the manner of Napoleon. He would've been rolling in his grave to find out after his death, that any attempt to diplomatically isolate France had been thrown out of the window by an attempt to challenge the Royal Navy in the North Sea and Russia in the orient without any real plan or thought as to "what happens if they all ally?" Because pissing people off all at the same time is... Inadvisable.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The thing about realpolitik as a concept is it usually means being pragmatic and ignoring one's ideology when it gets in the way of being effective. The positive image of this one thinks of is when one comes to a mutual agreement despite being ideologically opposed (example: a good chunk of why the cold war didn't go nuclear). For the negative of course, when the ideology or other "on paper" policies being ignored are things like basic common sense, international agreements, or the laws of war...

As seen here however, another layer to this is a lot of politicians don't really understand the word "pragmatic" and instead take it to mean "bumblefuck my way over everybody in my way to get a paycheck, consequences be damned"
See also: CEOs and Presidents running their companies/countries into their ground because they think running their organisations/nations like mafia loot goblins makes them intelligent

The_Explorer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52251 on: January 03, 2024, 05:48:22 pm »

Iran issued an arrest warrant for trump (other officials too dunno who)

I'd literally probably at least pass out laughing if he got deported to iran to face charges. That would be the best start to 2024.
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52252 on: January 03, 2024, 06:42:51 pm »

Can we get Bibi delivered to the Hamas also? I'm concerned that the USA will allow Americans boots into Gaza as peacekeepers, and gifting bad leaders as a peace offering seems like a better solution.
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52253 on: January 06, 2024, 08:16:24 am »

SCOTUS has accepted cert on Colorado ballot disqualification. First hearing on Feb 8th. Text and audio only, no PPV. Get yer bets out.

I'm betting a court majority either punts the issue on primaries being a private event protected by 1A, or that 14A§5 and the Supremacy Clause forbids state enforcement of 14A§3 parallel to existing federal enforcement of the same.
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52254 on: January 08, 2024, 08:43:03 am »

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/china-taiwan-weekly-update-january-4-2024


So uhh this is about the 3rd time I've read about this over the past two or three months. Is this going to be yet another own-goal? Does anyone remember several months ago when the US government was FORCED TO SHIT ITSELF on this very issue? Is there some reason I'm not being told that these agreements are a bad thing, actually? Would it be fair to guess that the right of politics is to blame for what appears a predictable fiasco?  It does seem the majority there has abandoned foreign policy altogether, unless invading Mexico can pass as such.
Spoiler: unfunny joke (click to show/hide)
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52255 on: January 09, 2024, 12:18:35 pm »

I'm just wanting to say, apropos of nothing particularly current, that if this is an issue, I'm frankly surprised that there's no comment about the obvious musical link...
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Maximum™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52256 on: January 09, 2024, 03:36:23 pm »

I wasn't born a Max, but it's not my fault my parents gave me the wrong name, what the fuck did they know?

I mean, in general I have to suggest avoiding any super popular names, it's so fucking annoying growing up as [name] [initial] because there are already three other kids named [name] in your class.


Also the orange turd and his lawyers actually went so far as to say it would have been legal for him to order "seal team 6 to assassinate a political rival" and never face justice if he wasn't impeached/removed for it.

Which, you know, fine, grant Biden the ability to have your stupid orange ass whacked! Rock the fuck on you moron! He can work on all those justices McConnell pushed through afterwards, and naturally Mitch should be way up the list after Kavanaugh et al.
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52257 on: January 09, 2024, 06:24:57 pm »

So is it time to charge Obama with the murders of Anwar and Abdulrahman al-Awlaki?
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52258 on: January 09, 2024, 06:58:11 pm »

Are you this boring in your real life?
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Maximum™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52259 on: January 09, 2024, 09:29:15 pm »

Gods below I hope not, that would be saaaaaaad.
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