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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4426869 times)

Strongpoint

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52110 on: December 06, 2023, 05:37:42 am »

While, perhaps, I should have checked who made the Twit I used in a link, the video is just information and it makes the character of the source irrelevant.

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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52111 on: December 06, 2023, 12:38:22 pm »

So I think the educators are right here - context is actually important. Otherwise you can just use words like genocide to mean whatever you want; and worse, if you simply say that "you cannot stand for anyone that calls for genocide" and then start claiming people you don't like are calling for genocide, you've granted carte-blanche approval for any and all forms of ostracizing those people.

This whole thing reeks of Red Scare... it's not that genocide should be accepted. It's that accusations of calling for genocide need to be more responsibly raised, than just yelling at university presidents who aren't oppressing the young adults on their campuses who get themselves into emotionally-charged political frenzies from time to time.  And you shouldn't oppress people who just disagree with you.

Basically - when you call everything "a call to genocide" then you mute the response to actual genocidal behavior.  The old "if everything's a genocide, then nothing is" trick.

This is a real problem, and it's sad that people are falling for it.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52112 on: December 06, 2023, 04:50:25 pm »

https://twitter.com/RepStefanik/status/1732138663608271149

So, it is fine to call for genocide in the best American universities now (depending on the context). Cool!
Stefanik gives the game away at 25 seconds, IMO.
Quote from: transcribed because I'm procrastinating
Stefanik: "Yes or no- calling for the genocide of Jews does not constitute bullying or harassment?"
Kornbluth: "I have not heard calling for the genocide of Jews on our campus"
Stefanik: "But you have heard chants for intifada"
Kornbluth: "I've heard chants that can be antisemitic depending on the context: when calling for the elimination of the Jewish people"
Stefanik: "So those would not be according to the MIT's code of conduct or rules"

I'm not sure why they can't say "It would be against of code of conduct, if it was happening".  But I see why they don't just say "yes" when Stefanik is shamelessly conflating calls for Palestinian liberation with calls for genocide against the Jewish people.

I'm no PR expert or lawyer so all I know is Stefanik's playing a dishonest game and seems to have gotten what she wanted out of it.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52113 on: December 06, 2023, 04:55:10 pm »

Kevin McCarthy has announced his retirement from Congress at the end of the year. Given the time it takes for a Special Election to be called, this will further narrow the GOP majority to 7. Recent redistricting means that McCarthy is the only person to stand election in the current California 20th Congressional district, so we don't have much to suggest how the special election and then the general election will play out.
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Strongpoint

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52114 on: December 07, 2023, 02:54:58 pm »

I'm not sure why they can't say "It would be against of code of conduct, if it was happening".  But I see why they don't just say "yes" when Stefanik is shamelessly conflating calls for Palestinian liberation with calls for genocide against the Jewish people.

I'm no PR expert or lawyer so all I know is Stefanik's playing a dishonest game and seems to have gotten what she wanted out of it.

The proper answer would be "Of course, yes" Then they could argue that what is implied as calls for genocide of Jews is not calls for genocide under their rules\interpritation.

Saying that it depends on context is outright disgusting. It is no different to something like - "is calls for reestablishing black slavery against the rules?"
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52115 on: December 07, 2023, 04:29:36 pm »

Framing something as a "call to genocide" is a very common rhetoric from university groups, and has been applied to thing ranging from mild criticism of Israel to condemnation of South African apartheid to backing the defense of Ukraine. Because it is so very common, a blanket "a call to genocide is banned" would run the risk of landing the university in extremely hot water with the Federal government, which bans excessive interference with student speech.

In this case, she issued a later clarifying statement.

Quote
“In that moment, I was focused on our university’s longstanding policies aligned with the US Constitution, which say that speech alone is not punishable,” she says in a video posted tonight (Wednesday). “I was not focused on, but I should have been, the irrefutable fact that a call for genocide of Jewish people is a call for some of the most terrible violence human beings can perpetrate. It’s evil — plain and simple.”
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52116 on: December 07, 2023, 04:44:43 pm »

It all has shades of "Have you stopped beating your wife?", insofar as it being unwise to even start your answer with a Yes or No. It's not a provocative question by accident, of course. If the questioner is looking to impose their own agenda then they're likely prepared to shut down the answer as soon as they get the 'clear' yes or no and lock out the bit of the reply that disentangles the nuance necessary.

Something like the more proper response, from a properly prepared answerer, might be something like "I do not accept the premise of the question (...and this is why, if you'll let me continue...)", although that is perhaps soured by those smooth-talkers who do have something to hide and have such answers down pat to always slither out of proper laser-targetted questions. Being just too smooth in their houdini acts can be taken as a bad sign, whereas a genuinely railroaded interviewee is probably always going to be goaded and rushed into a stumble and the best they can do is try to recover from such a forced error and hope that they dodge the worst of the bad result (hope that enough people have enough sympathy with them to recognise the railroading tactics from the interrogator, rather than latch onto it).


Nothing like the above, but last weekend I was in a situation where my general ease of speaking one-to-one contrasted mightily with having to make points to a room-full of people. When raising my hand to suggest I'd like to make a point, etc, I definitely knew what I wanted to raise. Upon being given the floor, this disintigrates somewhat as I attempt to deal with (something like) 60 to 80 people now swivelled to face me, all my usual tricks for 'effortlessly' dealing with a face-to-face(-to-face-and-maybe-one-more) conversation[1] just don't work. How I'd be if sat as a witness (a televised witness, moreover) or similar, the world actually turning on my every word... No, I'd not like that.

Now, obviously you'd expect some who has risen to such a position of (localised) power to not be quite so unable to flash the smile and get 'the room' to go along with them (it's how they likely attained that level of competancy), but everyone has their limitations, especially when up against another "professional showboater" such as a nationally prominent politician must be (just to prevail against all the other aspiring professional showboaters they must have somehow elbowed their way past to reach such a zenith). Yeah-but-no-but... Not a desirable spot to be put in. Best you can hope for is to be so charismatic a showboater in your own right that you've still not reached your own apogee, and are just swinging past the (probably unchosen) obstacle of the interogation on the way to some higher thing. And there's not that much room in the upper point of a pyramid (with those who inhabit it rarely universally praised for it, certainly once they fall out of it again).


[1] There was one face-to-face where I did not know who I was talking to (didn't recognise them, but knew them by name and reputation) and I found myself in a conversation where heavy hints about a certain outcome were being said, without actually saying... But because the hints were on the down-low, I was replying on the down-low and (it turns out) was doing a 'nudge nudge, wink wink, raise eyebrow' at totally cross purposes. The other party may well have schmoozed their desired outcome, later on, but the manner of the "no names, no packdrill" conversation we had may well have added up to zero net difference in the internal politics (I dislike internal politics... as much as external politics... though of course it is a normal human condition - and I am of course a perfectly normal human) and just downgraded his reputation more, in my eyes... And maybe next time we'll meet I'll actually recognise him, and be on the right foot in the next conversation.
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52117 on: December 08, 2023, 06:10:42 am »

https://twitter.com/RepStefanik/status/1732138663608271149

So, it is fine to call for genocide in the best American universities now (depending on the context). Cool!
Stefanik gives the game away at 25 seconds, IMO.
Quote from: transcribed because I'm procrastinating
Stefanik: "Yes or no- calling for the genocide of Jews does not constitute bullying or harassment?"
Kornbluth: "I have not heard calling for the genocide of Jews on our campus"
Stefanik: "But you have heard chants for intifada"
Kornbluth: "I've heard chants that can be antisemitic depending on the context: when calling for the elimination of the Jewish people"
Stefanik: "So those would not be according to the MIT's code of conduct or rules"

I'm not sure why they can't say "It would be against of code of conduct, if it was happening".  But I see why they don't just say "yes" when Stefanik is shamelessly conflating calls for Palestinian liberation with calls for genocide against the Jewish people.

I'm no PR expert or lawyer so all I know is Stefanik's playing a dishonest game and seems to have gotten what she wanted out of it.

I feel that that completely ignores the historic context of antisemitism and wish for genocide of Jews these terms are loaded with, as well as the historically genocidal sentiment of the people who used them, and that even more dishonest to me. We're back to what hector was doing earlier with the "from river to sea, Palestine will be free" slogan and going "no you don't know what they mean by free you can't say it's genocidal" when in fact we do know the historical context and meaning of "free" and it is genocidal.

The fact that this is even up for debate is ridiculous. If you can't see how language like this is terrifying for many Jews to hear than you need to try harder to be empathetic.
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52118 on: December 08, 2023, 12:12:33 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52119 on: December 08, 2023, 12:30:17 pm »

https://twitter.com/RepStefanik/status/1732138663608271149

So, it is fine to call for genocide in the best American universities now (depending on the context). Cool!
Stefanik gives the game away at 25 seconds, IMO.
Quote from: transcribed because I'm procrastinating
Stefanik: "Yes or no- calling for the genocide of Jews does not constitute bullying or harassment?"
Kornbluth: "I have not heard calling for the genocide of Jews on our campus"
Stefanik: "But you have heard chants for intifada"
Kornbluth: "I've heard chants that can be antisemitic depending on the context: when calling for the elimination of the Jewish people"
Stefanik: "So those would not be according to the MIT's code of conduct or rules"

I'm not sure why they can't say "It would be against of code of conduct, if it was happening".  But I see why they don't just say "yes" when Stefanik is shamelessly conflating calls for Palestinian liberation with calls for genocide against the Jewish people.

I'm no PR expert or lawyer so all I know is Stefanik's playing a dishonest game and seems to have gotten what she wanted out of it.

I feel that that completely ignores the historic context of antisemitism and wish for genocide of Jews these terms are loaded with, as well as the historically genocidal sentiment of the people who used them, and that even more dishonest to me. We're back to what hector was doing earlier with the "from river to sea, Palestine will be free" slogan and going "no you don't know what they mean by free you can't say it's genocidal" when in fact we do know the historical context and meaning of "free" and it is genocidal.

The fact that this is even up for debate is ridiculous. If you can't see how language like this is terrifying for many Jews to hear than you need to try harder to be empathetic.

People mischaracterizing me again ::) the context you failed to provide of that discussion was people marching for peace using the phrase. Excuse me for having the opinion that people marching for an end to conflict aren’t making a call for genocide.

Jews are allowed to respond with fear to it because it has been used to call for their extermination, but people who aren’t using it to mean that are allowed to point out they’re not using it that way.

Administrators then have the decision to make of where to draw the line: do they draw the line on stopping people saying it, potentially infringing upon the rights of people calling for the freedom of a state that has been under military occupation for decades, or do they fall on the side of permitting it, and thus allowing people who do mean it as the extermination of Jews to nudge nudge wink wink their way to relevance?

Catch-22, their going to be criticized either way.
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Strongpoint

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52120 on: December 08, 2023, 12:42:05 pm »

Framing something as a "call to genocide" is a very common rhetoric from university groups, and has been applied to thing ranging from mild criticism of Israel to condemnation of South African apartheid to backing the defense of Ukraine.

Do you claim that if the question was "Is it against the rules to call for a genocide of Palestinians, yes or no?" then the answer would be the same?


Quote from: scriver
The fact that this is even up for debate is ridiculous. If you can't see how language like this is terrifying for many Jews to hear than you need to try harder to be empathetic.
The worst part is that actions often follow words. If there will be a deadly attack on a synagogue or a violent riot in some university with the lynching of Jewish students or something of that people will do a surprised Pickachu face and say - "well, we didn't incite THAT"
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52121 on: December 08, 2023, 03:12:02 pm »

I suspect (hope?) that most of the students1 protesting against Israel think they are just advocating for policy change, not actually killing people or wiping out a nation.

This is why this is all just a mess - people both say things without understanding the implications of what they are saying and take what someone is saying and assume it is implying something different than the literal interpretation.

Both sins are problematic.

1Sadly I can't say the same about the politicians and other power brokers - I think they are trying to get power, not actually encourage policy change.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52122 on: December 08, 2023, 04:16:58 pm »

I feel that that completely ignores the historic context of antisemitism and wish for genocide of Jews these terms are loaded with, as well as the historically genocidal sentiment of the people who used them, and that even more dishonest to me. We're back to what hector was doing earlier with the "from river to sea, Palestine will be free" slogan and going "no you don't know what they mean by free you can't say it's genocidal" when in fact we do know the historical context and meaning of "free" and it is genocidal.

The fact that this is even up for debate is ridiculous. If you can't see how language like this is terrifying for many Jews to hear than you need to try harder to be empathetic.
It's Zionists who are ignoring all context and pretend that any, ANY opposition to this apartheid state is "a wish for genocide of Jews" and "antisemitism".  It's absolutely disgusting... at least, that's what many Jewish people think about it.

Maybe every antifa suddenly changed their minds and went full Nazi, or maaaaaaaaaybe the pro-Israel side is deliberately misrepresenting the situation.
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The_Explorer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52123 on: December 08, 2023, 05:13:02 pm »

So uh...

Venezuela decided to pile in on "lets take over a smaller weaker nation" bandwagon

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/07/venezuela-guyana-esequibo-map-border-dispute/

granted no actual war yet...so will have to see what happens, but looking to be that way

So we got russia and ukraine
israel and Gaza/hamas
Iran doing stuff
China doing stuff
Venezuela now doing stuff

Usually BAD economies make wars, but the world economy post-covid is doing amazing and now everyone thinks its time for conflict. The least amount of people out of work and the least amount of homeless (in the US that is) thats ever been. Ignoring republicans including all the migrants as "homeless", there is actually far less homeless citizens that are officially registered as american than there ever been. Which coincides with the most amount of jobs added to the economy and more people in work than out of work (according to CNN)

Maybe the rest of the world is not doing as good as the US is so they want war? Dunno just seems silly.
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Strongpoint

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52124 on: December 09, 2023, 02:39:14 am »

Quote
It's Zionists who are ignoring all context and pretend that any, ANY opposition to this apartheid state is "a wish for genocide of Jews" and "antisemitism". 
Zionism is the self-determination movement of the Jewish people. If you are an anti-Zionist then you oppose this fundamental right of any nation to have their own country. And if oppose a fundamental right of a group, you oppose this group. Anti-Zionism IS antisemitism.

I actually heard the very same logic from a Russian - I have nothing against Ukrainians but Ukraine should not exist because it is Russian land.




Sure Israel, like any other state, deserves criticism when it does something wrong. But you don't need to combine your criticism with genocidial chants, slurs, glorification of Jew-murdering monsters and massacres, antisemitic tropes, attacks on random American Jews (luckily, so far, mostly non-violent), and calls for the destruction of the state of Israel - All of which are increasingly common in the USA (and Western world in general)



If the question was - "Is it against the rules to criticize the state of Israel?" the answer "it depends" or "no" would be totally fine.
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