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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4435994 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51435 on: August 14, 2023, 09:17:14 am »

Right now, the biggest drug issue in the US is opioids. For a long time, legitimate medical personnel were heavily overprescribing due to pressure from the drug manufacturers (this has resulted in a massive lawsuit that the US Supreme Court just refused to block), and this overprescribing resulted in widespread addiction. The primary attempt to fight this involved aggressive rules on pharmacies and doctors to cut off the source of legitimate opioids, which has greatly reduced the increase in addiction. However, the large number of existing addicts have turned to the illegal black market.

This is a great problem because, unlike legitimate drugs for the prescription market, drugs on the black market very rarely contain what they say they do. The vast majority of the "heroin" or "oxycotin" you buy on the illegal market is either adulterated or entirely composed of fentanyl derivatives. Fentanyl can be illegally imported in massive quantities from China with relative ease, and is so incredibly potent (to the point where the lethal dosage is on par with chemical weapons) that it is incredibly easy for a careless distributor or one working with shoddy equipment to compound mixtures that are lethally potent. It is worth noting that when it is mixed to correct doses by trained professionals in proper clinical settings, Fentanyl is basically a wonder drug -  a highly effective painkiller that carries a fairly low addiction risk when used carefully. It is particularly popular with pediatric doctors because the potency allows it to be compounded into candies and such that a child in severe pain is more likely to accept than a pill or shot.


And yeah, it's bad. Really bad. At least a dozen, possibly two, people that I know have been cut down by overdoses in the last five years. And that's only the people that I have some loose contact with. If you extend it to all the people I used to know but have fallen out of contact with, I am certain that the number will grow far higher.
In one American town, 81 million opioid pills were sent to a town with a population of 91,000. In one American village, 9 million opioid pills were sent to a town with a population of 400. The scale of overprescription was INSANE

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51436 on: August 14, 2023, 02:20:45 pm »

I could... maybe see something like that, if the places they were sent to were more primary distribution areas for a larger region? There's areas where much more than the population of the town/city itself use the place to fill prescriptions.

Probably it was just wildly overprescribed, though, yeah.

Maui's governor Josh Green announced that 89 people have died in the island fires, making this the deadliest fire in the US in over a hundred years.
Green warns that people should prepare to find more dead under the rubble.
The histroical town of Lahaina has been nearly completely destroyed. Fires are still burning.
Yeah, maui in general is just... closed, basically, for the next while. Really bad confluence of events, lot of it looks like just plain bad luck from what I've been seeing of commentary -- firefighting infrastructure was tied up, bad winds flared up at the worst time and spread the fire too fast to really react, nasty stuff. Rebuilding's going to take a while, lot of people lost more or less everything they had, it's pretty rough.

Wild thing is there's apparently folks out there asking when the island'll be open for tourism again, which is, just. Words fail. Now ain't the time, asshats ::)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51437 on: August 14, 2023, 02:34:51 pm »

I could... maybe see something like that, if the places they were sent to were more primary distribution areas for a larger region? There's areas where much more than the population of the town/city itself use the place to fill prescriptions.

Probably it was just wildly overprescribed, though, yeah.
Full story:

Was it "unreasonable" for three of America's biggest corporations — the drug wholesalers AmerisourceBergen, Cardinal Health and McKesson — to ship roughly 81 million highly addictive opioid pills to pharmacies in one small Rust Belt city on the Ohio River?

If that was a reckless thing to do, does the addiction crisis in Huntington and surrounding Cabell County, W.Va., amount to a "public nuisance" that the companies must help remedy?
The answers to those questions will now be decided by U.S. District Judge David Faber in Charleston, W.Va.
"It was a blowout," Farrell said. "We had 81 million pills that came flooding into our community. And it wasn't by accident. Somebody delivered those pills here."
According to federal data made public during the trial, the pills were shipped to the community from 2006 through 2014, years when America's opioid epidemic was surging.

Officials in Huntington and Cabell County are asking Faber to award them up to $2.5 billion in damages, money they would use to help ease the opioid crisis.
The companies deny any wrongdoing and say the huge shipments of pills — which they acknowledge occurred — reflected trends in opioid prescribing practices by doctors, which were out of their control.
So these weren't pills in transit, they were for prescription

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51438 on: August 14, 2023, 02:48:55 pm »

That's... over an 8 year period? So about 10 million a year, or ~111 per person per year; i.e. less than one per day per person. Literally everyone in the town wouldn't be on prescription painkillers, obviously, but it'd only take like a 3rd of that population (or less, plus however many folks were driving into town for their meds) on prescription painkillers to make that... not actually that unreasonable? 1 per day per relevant person, likely to be 2 or more in practice since even opioids don't tend to last 24 hours, etc. Not all of the folks on painkillers would be on opioid painkillers, but... still. It wouldn't take that many people on a daily painkiller prescription to hit those kind of numbers over nearly a decade.

That's definitely a number reported like that to be scary more than informative, and by a rough eyeball suggests a lot like the pharma folks involved are likely to avoid legal censure, blech.

E: Though looking a little more, it looks like the national average is ~10% on painkillers, roughly half that on opioids. End up being about 2k pills a year per likely person in a population that size, so about 6/day per likely person, which... is a bit much. I'd expect 2-4 to be more likely, from what I've seen of opioid prescriptions.

That said, you only need that population of prescribers again, or about half it, to be driving into town for pickup for it to start just looking like folks with a daily painkiller prescription.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 02:55:53 pm by Frumple »
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Micro102

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51439 on: August 14, 2023, 03:18:48 pm »

Huntington's population is 46,842 which already give me a different number (where did you get your population Frumple?), ~20% is going to be 18 or under, so it comes out to be more around 270 pills per person a year for every day if every adult was prescribed them.

Here is the full article which goes into the medical consequences, and I think it's pretty clear that if you were in charge of sending opiods to places, one town getting waaaaaaaay more opiods than anywhere else should set off red lights in your head.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 03:24:17 pm by Micro102 »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51440 on: August 14, 2023, 03:28:58 pm »

Huntington's population is 46,842 which already give me a different number (where did you get your population Frumple?)
I was just plugging in the ones LW used, heh.

That said, I'm seeing where LW's 91k came from, it's roughly the population of the larger county that city's in (huntington apparently is in both cabell -- ~93k -- and wayne -- ~38k -- counties), which seems to be the actual target area in question. The age thing wouldn't be particular relevant, ~5% of the population is on prescription opioids, not 5% of the adult population. It works out to about where I was at from there, I think.

The more I'm looking at this, the less it seems like something wildly out of place, though. Going by the numbers, it's entirely possible the place actually wasn't getting a significantly larger amount than normal. Possibly higher, from eyeballing it, but not wildly so.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 03:31:16 pm by Frumple »
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Micro102

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51441 on: August 14, 2023, 03:39:22 pm »

Ah I see now. I got it backwards and thought Cabell county was part of Huntington.

And I found a neat map: https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/rxrate-maps/state2010.html

This was 2010 in the middle of the opioid crisis in the article.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51442 on: August 14, 2023, 04:14:03 pm »

That's... over an 8 year period? So about 10 million a year, or ~111 per person per year; i.e. less than one per day per person. Literally everyone in the town wouldn't be on prescription painkillers, obviously, but it'd only take like a 3rd of that population (or less, plus however many folks were driving into town for their meds) on prescription painkillers to make that... not actually that unreasonable? 1 per day per relevant person, likely to be 2 or more in practice since even opioids don't tend to last 24 hours, etc. Not all of the folks on painkillers would be on opioid painkillers, but... still. It wouldn't take that many people on a daily painkiller prescription to hit those kind of numbers over nearly a decade.

That's definitely a number reported like that to be scary more than informative, and by a rough eyeball suggests a lot like the pharma folks involved are likely to avoid legal censure, blech.

E: Though looking a little more, it looks like the national average is ~10% on painkillers, roughly half that on opioids. End up being about 2k pills a year per likely person in a population that size, so about 6/day per likely person, which... is a bit much. I'd expect 2-4 to be more likely, from what I've seen of opioid prescriptions.

That said, you only need that population of prescribers again, or about half it, to be driving into town for pickup for it to start just looking like folks with a daily painkiller prescription.

10 million a year for a town of 91,000 is fucking nuts. Opiates for acute pain should by NHS guidelines not exceed 7 days supply per person, so shipping enough to give everyone an annual prescription is unprecedented. Even assuming all 91,000 residents are terminally ill palliative care patients, it would be an aberration to give all of them opiates, as there are strict inclusion and exclusion criteria which must be satisfied before the long term effects of pain management by opiates is deemed worth the side effects (e.g. 5%-10% of people lack the liver enzyme that turns codeine into morphine, producing no pain relief but still retaining side effects. A smaller population overproduces the enzyme, resulting in a proneness to toxicity). Needless to say having 1 in 10 people addicted to opiates and 6.5% of the population dead from overdoses is a clear smoking gun for malpractice, but some brief maths show just how obviously fucked up this scale of oversupply would seem to a pharmaceutical supplier (it may not seem obvious at first, but if my pharmacist ordered these many pills I would be fucking concerned lmao, because the police would be kicking down the door and asking questions with no obvious answers short of running a hospice or a drug smuggling operation).

For starters, it's hard to gauge just how atrocious the oversupply of opiates was, because not all opiates are equal in strength or addictiveness per pill. The number of pills NPR gives is sourced from totals deriving from AmerisourceBergen, Cardinal Health and McKesson, which all have a broad portfolio of various opiates.
A typical codeine prescription might see someone seriously in pain be prescribed 60mg tablet of codeine q4h, or 8 pills per day.

Doing some rough tablecloth maths, using the per capita surgeries for high income North America, from the town of 91,000 people you'd expect this town to have about 4228 operations per year. Using codeine and the unreasonable assumption that every operation required a 7 day course of opiates (which is ridiculous) you'd expect 240,128 codeine pills delivered for this cohort per year.

It just gets even more unjustifiable if the quantity of pills included stronger opiates like hydromorphone. E.g. a 32mg hydromorphone pill is roughly equal to 160mg of oral morphine, whereas the total 480mg daily cap for codeine is roughly equal to 48mg of oral morphine. If the opiates they were using were more potent, long-lasting ones like hydromorphone, you would expect even fewer opiates prescribed.

I had to double check and make sure Huntingdon wasn't some unusal cluster of hospices providing end of term chronic pain management for terminally ill patients (it's not that uncommon, so I checked and Huntingdon does have a hospice) which has seen 15,000 patients in the last 41 years, or about 365 people a year. Assuming all of those patients are taking a codeine prescription (which again is not a reasonable assumption, not every hospice patient is on palliative care, and a patient on palliative care could last years or just days), the absolute maximum you'd expect Huntingdon hospice to produce is a prescription of around 1,065,800 pills a year - assuming all patients are on palliative care, with none passing away.

I haven't been able to find an exact breakdown of what drugs in what dosages per pill, but even using the most generous and liberal estimate of prescriptions, assuming all possible patients are responsive to opiates, there is an unexplainable black hole of 8.7 million pills per year - consistent with having 1 in 10 addicted to opioids instead of some anomalous medical event in Huntingdon requiring 1 in 10 to be on an end of term opioid prescription.

A brief look into criminal investigations of another pharmaceutical company Purdue shows they were well aware they were acting as the suppliers to deliberate overprescription:
As part of today’s guilty plea, Purdue admitted that from May 2007 through at least March 2017, it conspired to defraud the United States by impeding the lawful function of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA).  Purdue represented to the DEA that it maintained an effective anti-diversion program when, in fact, Purdue continued to market its opioid products to more than 100 health care providers whom the company had good reason to believe were diverting opioids.  Purdue also reported misleading information to the DEA to boost Purdue’s manufacturing quotas.  The misleading information comprised prescription data that included prescriptions written by doctors that Purdue had good reason to believe were engaged in diversion.  The conspiracy also involved aiding and abetting violations of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act by facilitating the dispensing of its opioid products, including OxyContin, without a legitimate medical purpose, and thus without lawful prescriptions.
Every hospital and pharmacy has its own procedures in place to ensure proper drugs accountability, both to make sure patients don't take too much or too little, and to ensure no staff members are pilfering and distributing their own stash. There is no way the pharmaceutical suppliers, phamacies, doctors did not know what they were doing for profit. Fortunately this was also the conclusion of the DEA and the US justice system, so my faith in humanity is at least somewhat restored. But the scale was unprecedented, and not localised to just one town.

In two years, the town of Kermit in West Virginia received almost nine million opioid pills, according to a congressional committee.
Just 400 people live in Kermit.
For a village of 400 people, you would expect anywhere between 1,000 and 0 opioid pills a year...

hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51443 on: August 14, 2023, 04:45:46 pm »

Just sayin’, I appreciate your takes LW, and the effort you go to supporting them.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51444 on: August 14, 2023, 05:01:04 pm »

Thanks hector, it means a lot. Honestly I love bay12; a minute here is worth an hour on other platforms. There may be less people here than before the age of discords, but everyone here is sincere in an age of indifference and too many layers of irony

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51445 on: August 14, 2023, 05:14:55 pm »

For a village of 400 people, you would expect anywhere between 1,000 and 0 opioid pills a year...
Just to make sure it's acknowledged, the kermit one's just flat nuts, yeah. I could maybe see those numbers of huntington, just going by US prescription rates (which are probably themselves somewhere in crazyland compared to how things work regarding the NHS -- from what I've seen, even this long into the opioid crisis docs are very, very casual about prescribing opioids), but the kermit one boggles even the possibility of reason. Idle look into it suggests there was a lot of tourism coming into that town to pick up prescriptions*, but that'd have to do a hell of a lot of lifting to get those kind of numbers.

But yeah, making it clear, I do think the kind of numbers huntington saw is fucking nuts. I'm just less sure they're unusual for (parts of) the US. It's an indictment of the state of US healthcare more than anything, heh.

Funny thing is, from that map posted it kinda' looks like they were actually a little below their state's average at the time, so have fun with that one.

... though there's also a dash of frustration with the reporting involved. 81 million sounds like a scary number, but the presentation involved with it was shit -- you gave better context on that in a maybe an hour without pay than those reporters did in who knows how much time for a paycheck :V

*Though, in something vaguely resembling fairness for that one, it's not actually uncommon for folks to go across state lines to pick up prescriptions in the US... lot of times it's just cheaper to do that for whatever reason, or access just isn't available where you live.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51446 on: August 14, 2023, 07:10:30 pm »

I just wanna say that, even as I was writing my own 'professional' opinion on data protection/preservation (based on health-adjacent experience) on another thread, you once again show me that I'm wise to dabble not (much!) in the affairs of actual wizards healthcare professionals who know the kind of details that you do.

(The most I know about dosages, right now, is that I could have two teaspoons of cough mixture every four hours, if I thought I needed to.  :P But that the small half-full bottle I just dug out of the cupboard is dated "Use before: 1/April/2009”. Truly.)
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zhijinghaofromchina

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51447 on: August 15, 2023, 05:27:51 am »

Dear bay watchers I just learnt some news about the fire broke out in Hawaii, some me-medias here said that the citizens did not get any pre-warnings .
How could it be so bad? Isn’t there existing some social media users?They may provide some information and warnings!
Feeling sorry by the citizens there who suffered from the fire , hoping that they can rest in peace 😔 a few days ago a fierce tornado had broke out in my mother’s homeland . It was so lucky that my grandmother did not suffer from it !
I also heard that the Hawaii did not want to be a part of the USA, is that right?If it’s true, that can explain why the government did not take any action against the fire.
Some me-mediators said that the American deserved the disaster because the government forbidden the use of the tik tok making it harder for the people to share their information they are gloat but I think that their views are just so ugly and disgusting.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51448 on: August 15, 2023, 07:06:56 am »

An interesting take on this. Tempted to wait a couple of hours for those more local to get chance to respond (it being still early morning or very early morning, across the US), but I feel I can fill the gap (before it becomes too late in the evening for you in China; or run out of 'screentime' quota, if that affects you).

There may have been warnings, but insufficient ones. It is said that some people got phone-alerts, many did not. And the sirens (national defence/hurricane warning/volcano alert, whatever their purpose(s)...) that supposedly exist in the area weren't used.

Some have said that their first alert was when they power/phone-lines went down, though apparently that's not unusual. And it was very early in the morning, so most noticed by those up early to communicate with 'mainland US' colleagues. Anybody still asleep/not yet awake may not have had functional alarm-clocks or charged up and receptive phones. But there's going to be investigations about all aspects of the response, and we'll find out what did/didn't happen. Fire-crews seem to have been busy with further-away fires and couldn't even get ahead of the main front before it reached the main toan in question, but still too much to sort out before we know all the facts.

Don't know anything about Hawaiian Secession. No doubt there's some, but it seems very proudly American to me from what I've seen. And certainly there's no obvious reason for Washington to drag its hands for one of its most valuable territories, footprint-wise. If there's any local (state-level) politics that considers Maui less servicable than other islands then that's different. But I get the idea that there's plenty of "rich white Euro-Americans" there, so it won't be like effectively forgetting about some backwater neighbourhood of Detroit or even trying to leave the native-Hawaiians to deal with their own issues (if the Pacific Islander-rooted ethnicity isn't as accepted as I always thought they were, much more accepted than the 'native tribe' types of the continental Americas, tip to toe). - Someone can correct me if I'm wrong (here on the other side of the planet, effectively), but I think that's a nothingburger of an issue. Plain incompetance, if anything, rather than selective targetted malice aforethought. We'll hear about it if it's more serious than that, I'm sure.

Not sure Tik Tok would help (not that it's banned-banned, just restricted in official situations). And worldwide Tiktok is w different creature from China's Tiktok. It's a meme-disperser with algorithms pushing content who-knows-how, rather than the all-in-one sort of asynchronous Facetiming system I understand it is within .cn's jurisdiction. Hardly a timely broadcast medium, out here. You don't get (urgent) news from it, whatever else you do.

Facebook, Twitter X and perhaps Instagram might have been better alert systems. But it's specifically the Emergency Alert System and Wireless Emergency Alert System that should have been the main route. That famously was accidentally used, five years ago. You'll not be able to read most news sites/wiki articles about it (perhaps this satirical take on it might be accessable), but the message "BALLISTIC MISSILE THREAT INBOUND TO HAWAII. SEEK IMMEDIATE SHELTER. THIS IS NOT A DRILL." was broadcast throughout the state by accident one morning in 2018, and it took a while to retract the message. Depending on if the phone masts/cables were still operational/connected, one would expect that to have been the method (legitimately) used for fire warnings... Possibly it was, since then, made less easy to (accidentally?) trigger, but I don't currently know about that...
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51449 on: August 15, 2023, 08:05:41 am »

Dear bay watchers I just learnt some news about the fire broke out in Hawaii, some me-medias here said that the citizens did not get any pre-warnings .
How could it be so bad? Isn’t there existing some social media users?They may provide some information and warnings!

The problem was not "lack of warnings" in the sense of the problem being known but not spreading. The issue was that the fires were initially contained quite well and thought to be completely under control. This ended when unusually powerful (some sources are saying 128+ kilometers per hour) winds tore through the area and turbocharged the fire, which then spread at the incredible rate of a kilometer every thirty seconds. Or, in other words, it went from "completely under control" to "unstoppable firestorm" far too fast for any warnings to spread.

Quote
I also heard that the Hawaii did not want to be a part of the USA, is that right?If it’s true, that can explain why the government did not take any action against the fire.

Taking the second part of this first, the government did, in fact, take full action against the fires. Just, once the winds hit nothing short of divine intervention could have brought things under control in time to matter.

As for Hawaii not wanting to be part of the US, that's a really old thing. The Kingdom of Hawaii collapsed into instability in the late 19th century (this would be a decade or two before the 義和拳; 义和拳 uprising, if that clarifies the timeline for you) due to economic disputes from the US, pressure from the US to grant some land for a very important naval base, the balance of power of domestic politics, and some other factors. This eventually resulted in the monarchy being overthrown in 1893 by a coalition primarily composed of American and European businessmen and Hawaiian-born descendants of the same. This resulted in the annexation of the territory a few years later in 1898. This was fairly unpopular among the native Hawaiian population at the time.

This was, you will note, well over a century ago. Today, the vast majority of Hawaiians are perfectly happy to be part of the US - the 1959 referendum on becoming a state (as opposed to a territory) had 97% approval.

Quote
Some me-mediators said that the American deserved the disaster because the government forbidden the use of the tik tok making it harder for the people to share their information they are gloat but I think that their views are just so ugly and disgusting.

This is pure nonsense. Tiktok remains legal for now, but is not, never has been, and never will be used for spreading any form of real information. It is used only to spread memes, viral videos, and right-wing propaganda. Disaster warnings are distributed by the government via cell-phone alerts (which means that your phone starts screaming at you even if you have it set to silent), warning sirens, and emergency broadcasts on TV and radio. Twitter and facebook and other social media is used in the aftermath of a disaster to reconnect with loved ones or coordinate additional aid (in addition to that provided by major organizations), but is not a major factor in communicating information during a disaster.
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