Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 3355 3356 [3357] 3358 3359 ... 3610

Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4451416 times)

Dostoevsky

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50340 on: January 23, 2023, 02:25:06 pm »

There's people that would believe hunter would do literally anything at this point. It's pretty irrelevant considering he doesn't and didn't have the documents in question.

Same family is enough for more than a few folks, I suspect.
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50341 on: January 23, 2023, 02:45:34 pm »

There's people that would believe hunter would do literally anything at this point. It's pretty irrelevant considering he doesn't and didn't have the documents in question.

Same family is enough for more than a few folks, I suspect.

At some point, surely someone will even try to make a big thing about the incriminating contents of the copy made of Harriet Bidens notebook! (I imagine it contain evidence of a lot of dodgy-in-hindsight commercial matters, and information pertaining to the persecution of native Indians...)
Logged

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50342 on: January 23, 2023, 03:27:45 pm »

imo, taking the documents was not so bad or unusual; it seems that over-classification makes it pretty much impossible for any politician in Washington to to go a single day without moving some classified documents around.
Where things went wrong was Trump's refusal to return the documents, or even bother to secure them properly after it was explained to him that they contained highly sensitive information. That mishandling of the situation is pretty much the polar opposite of how Biden handled his classified documents.

burn-before-reading levels of classified.

There’s a joke in there somewhere.

It is a joke of sorts - there is a common idea that very sensitive documents are destroyed after being read by their intended recipient (in wartime, it wasn't unheard of for special highly-flammable paper to be used for this purpose), and there's a level of classified information above that where everyone involved is even more paranoid. "This is so secret that you have to burn it before you read" it is a way to emphasize that.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

MrRoboto75

  • Bay Watcher
  • Belongs in the Trash!
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50343 on: January 23, 2023, 04:21:00 pm »

This shitpost will self-destruct in 10 seconds.
Logged
I consume
I purchase
I consume again

Lidku

  • Bay Watcher
  • Enclave here, why isn't your video feed working?
    • View Profile
    • [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Ylvdlc5.jpg[/IMG]
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50344 on: January 23, 2023, 09:58:34 pm »

These gun incidents in the country are getting out of hand..
Logged

hector13

  • Bay Watcher
  • It’s shite being Scottish
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50345 on: January 23, 2023, 10:01:02 pm »

Nah it’s just normal.

Demands for gun control form the Dems, thoughts and prayers as well as likely recriminations of the “mentally ill” from the Republicans, nothing getting done either way.
Logged
Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

If you struggle with your mental health, please seek help.

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50346 on: January 24, 2023, 12:31:30 am »

It's worth keeping in mind that the relevant legal codes specify that the crime is knowingly possessing and hiding/retaining/destroying/sharing/selling documents.

Believe it or not if you find a bundle of folders marked ultra-super-duper-whatthefuck-top-secret-classified on the side of the road and turn it over to a relevant authority you are at no risk of prosecution, which makes sense because this is what the government wants you to do if you find said documents.

If you found them and brought them to your house while you look up where to turn them over, again, this is a reasonable act, you're not likely to end up in trouble for it.

If you find them, go home, photocopy them, check online for russian agents to sell them to, get called by NARA after they discover you have them and told to turn them over and tell them to fuck off... well, don't do that.

Seriously don't do that, like holy shit, there's a reason the orange cunt tried to get a judge to declare the whole search illegal and have the documents returned: this runs afoul of NUMEROUS statutes with fun prizes ranging from "fines and months in prison per offense" to "you are going to die in prison if you don't end up getting hanged for this shit, dumbass" and at some point someone got across to him that he ABSOLUTELY MUST GET THOSE DOCS BACK AND DESTROYED to avoid those outcomes.

On the other hand, what did Biden do?

Found them, went "whoops" and turned them over to the relevant authorities: not a crime. He already did the right thing, and having a counsel appointed to make sure he did already provides cover for the government to point out "well, this former VP and current pres did this, while the former douche did so many other things, none of which can be ignored now" to which I say yay!
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50347 on: January 24, 2023, 01:33:36 am »

These gun incidents in the country are getting out of hand..
Nah it’s just normal.

On the news item, by which I learnt of the episode I presume being referenced here, they said "...the largest mass shooting since last March" (my italics)... Not even a record for the last twelve months (as a single incident).



Though, also, a later report (after the suspect had been located) said something like "...he took his own life, shortly before he was arrested...", which was 'funny'. And I suspect they meant "...shortly before he could have been arrested...", unless they read Miranda to his still cooling corpse, 'on the offchance'. Details could matter, here, but I'm not ghoulish enough to try to determine what can right now be known about his last/subsequent moments. Confine him to history, if one cannot now confine him to a cell (and the barest of footnotes in history.).
Logged

Thorfinn

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50348 on: January 24, 2023, 11:43:20 am »

It's worth keeping in mind that the relevant legal codes specify that the crime is knowingly possessing and hiding/retaining/destroying/sharing/selling documents.

Believe it or not if you find a bundle of folders marked ultra-super-duper-whatthefuck-top-secret-classified on the side of the road and turn it over to a relevant authority you are at no risk of prosecution, which makes sense because this is what the government wants you to do if you find said documents.

...what did Biden do?

Found them
On the side of the road?

The relevant crime here is removing SCI documents AT ALL. If there really was SCI-level stuff from his days as a Senator, that's more than a Whoopsie. When you go into SCIF, you are searched, you can't bring in a phone or a camera, and the only way you are walking out with SCI documents is to pull a Sandy Berger, i.e., stuffing them in your underwear. As a Senator, he had no authority at all to have secret documents anywhere unsecured.

Different story when he was VP. Obama amended Bush's EO to slightly change the declassification process, but he left in place the authority of the VP to do it. So whatever came from his time as VP, he can always claim he declassified it, so it was legal to take it home. But not  with SCI-level stuff, which is what the question is re: Trump. If there really was SCI stuff at Mar-A-Lago, the paper trail showing the declassification apparently does not exist. That would be a crime. Same is true with Biden. If there's really SCI level stuff unsecured in his garage or his spare bedroom, that's a problem -- the paperwork to show the declassification does not exist.
Logged

Dostoevsky

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50349 on: January 24, 2023, 01:24:10 pm »

Pence has now joined the neglected classified materials club. (He reportedly lawyered up and started a search after the Biden news broke, and a few days ago they found materials.)
Logged

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50350 on: January 24, 2023, 03:49:22 pm »

The question regarding the orange turd is why the hell they haven't convened a grand jury over the fact that he had them, was asked to return them, and refused to do so... to the point a search warrant was executed to return them to NARA against his will, and despite his efforts trying to get them back.

I know how SCIFs work, I even remember a bunch of fashy senators and reps trying to barge into a SCIF to film stuff at the behest of the orange moron, which is when I learned how they work.

I also know the most likely to be charged crime isn't involving simply possessing documents and turning them over, because EVEN WITH the highest classification stuff the relevant statutes involve retaining or removing or altering or destroying, and simply returning said documents the first time it is requested (or before) is an ironclad defense.

The difference between flyboy and Biden having retained materials vs the orange cunt is, again, that they handed over what they knew about.

They literally never said stupid things like "those are mine, you have to give them back" or went through concocting half-assed schemes to whip up some sort of calvinball rules to get them back, because nobody on the planet outside of the diehard orange cultists and their shitty orange leader are that goddamn motherfucking stupid.

While there are statutes regarding possessing certain classifications being illegal, the critical ones with history of successful prosecutions involve knowingly RETAINING documents with intent to prevent them from being returned to the proper authorities.

Which is only made worse in situations where say, a disgraced former president is trying to impress, oh, I don't know, foreign dignitaries or random fashy celebrities by showing off all the cool shit he stole from his last job.


Yet again, HAD HE SIMPLY RETURNED THEM WHEN REQUESTED HE WOULD NEVER HAVE FACED ANY LEGAL PROBLEMS OVER THEM, which is honestly remarkably stupid for someone who historically had a knack at avoiding such critical fuckups.

Like, yeah, he's deluded about still being president, he's had people blowing air up his ass about him being the next godking or whatever, and assumed the way he could just get away with stuff as president still applied... it is still the stupidest thing this stupid cunt has ever done.

This is a dumbfuck who was told "Do not look directly at the eclipse" and promptly went "what, that eclipse?"

Yet THIS is the biggest mistake he's ever made, and in hindsight he must have realized it otherwise he wouldn't have tried to get a judge to make up a reason to return them.

Which, again, is a thing that actually happened, and is in no way remotely comparable to various documents being found at the home or office of people who had previously been trusted with said documents.

Let me know when Biden starts ranting about how this is all an effort by the deep state to steal his RIGHTFUL PROPERTY which should be RETURNED IMMEDIATELY so people can go back to talking about his PERFECT phone calls or whatever. Then let me know when it comes out he knew about some of the documents and kept them long enough a judge approved a warrant to get them back.
Logged

Thorfinn

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50351 on: January 24, 2023, 04:13:48 pm »

Nope. Jarheads and squids end up in the clink because they took a picture with the wrong background. They would have happily turned the selfies over if asked, rather than spending time in hard labor, but the fact is possession is also a crime.

In both cases, Trump and Biden if there is SCI, they are likely in trouble, unless someone finds the declassification orders. Unless Biden issued a secret EO changing the SCI declassification procedure, of course, though that would not apply retroactively. But what is not going to change is that all such documents have control numbers. The SCIFs are checked at end of day. So they already know what day each SCI document walked out. What they can't isolate is who walked out with it. But because they knew which Senators were in the SCIF on that day, if Biden happens to be one of them, it's going to be hard to argue that one of the other Senators took them with the intent to plant them on Biden 20 years in the future.

But also, in both cases if it is less than SCI, Biden can say he declassified them as VP, and Trump could say declassified them as Prez, and no foul.
Logged

MrRoboto75

  • Bay Watcher
  • Belongs in the Trash!
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50352 on: January 24, 2023, 06:31:20 pm »

These gun incidents in the country are getting out of hand..

Well you've done nothing and expected a different result.
Logged
I consume
I purchase
I consume again

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50353 on: January 25, 2023, 04:12:31 am »

Possessing government docs like that and being told to return it only to refuse until a warrant is gotten and a search turns up lots of docs is a crime whether they are classified or not.

Focusing on the classification part is a mistake, it is never going to be part of any indictment going forward simply because it would always be possible for a jury to have doubts about whether things were declassified or not.

If that kills the possibility of them going after the orange turd over the classified docs alone, it obviously sinks any such efforts to go after Biden or Pence for the same reason.

On the other hand, only one of the three:
*knew they had docs
*resisted efforts by the government to get them returned
*clearly handled/went through/who knows what else with said docs while out of office
*quite possibly shared/gave/sold docs to members of a foreign government

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793 Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/794 Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519 Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071 Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
Logged

None

  • Bay Watcher
  • Forgotten, but not gone
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50354 on: January 25, 2023, 12:58:30 pm »

If all of the SCI documents are checked at the end of the day, and the folks in charge of doing this didn't notice or request the returns of the documents that Biden had until he found them and returned them (years?), it rather implies either gross negligence on the behalf of the bookkeepers or the documents weren't SCI after all. Some kind of classified, sure, but this is absolutely not an apt comparison to what Trump did. If this results in more accountability with our politicians and our documents, great, let's secure our sensitive information.

This is a stupid runaround.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3355 3356 [3357] 3358 3359 ... 3610