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[MorleyDev]

Also if the system is broken then you can do things to get around the broken system, like pooling together with a bunch of people to buy a house, but that doesn't address that the system is so broken as to require that and thus political action still needs taking to fix that broken system.

It's like how Go Fund Me campaigns to pay for medical expenses may work, but their very existance or even requirement points to the fact that the healthcare system is blatantly and brazenly failing and in need of fixing.

[None]

At one point, you could get one people together to have the resources to buy a house, and the car to get to work wasn't terrible and unreliable, and you could save 5% or more of a wage to have more capacity to deal with unexpected events.

At one point, we weren't concerned with climbing grocery prices and shrinkflation.

But tell that to 64% of the American population that lives paycheck to paycheck.

What changed, and how is it our fault that we can't have that? Why shouldn't we complain that four people together lose four jobs keeping the house afloat if the terrible used car shits the bed?

[McTraveller]

So what is the "minimum standard of living" to which you guys all aspire, which is not met by the current system(s)?

I've realized I think I just have a massive disconnect on expectations or something.

[Frumple]

Roof over head, not dying of preventable disease, able to reach and afford food, some degree (like, below 30 bucks a month worth) of entertainment? All that and knowing it's not one bad day from being out on the streets indefinitely. You can add a handful of things to that related to childcare and education if you plan on having children.

My income can't actually afford the average rent around here (and it's fucking cheap where I'm at compared to most of the country!), healthcare can easily bankrupt me, food situation's okay-ish but it's getting more expensive and prepping something that's not a future heart attack is time consuming and often extra expensive (because fucking somehow it costs more to get food with less junk in it). There's no guarantee I still have my job in a year and even less there'd be fucking any sort of safety net I could avail myself to in some sort of emergency, because I'm in Florida, and as I learned with Blue Cross/Florida Blue threw a shitfit over ACA slapping them for being fuckers causing me to lose health coverage when they jacked the prices beyond what could be afforded at the time, if you're poor enough in this state, the amount of help you get when you're having a bad time is "Fucking nothing lol, we just won't charge you extra for not having the money to afford taxes".

Extra niceties would be things like elder care worth a fucking goddamn so I could have some option other than running myself into an early grave trying and substantively failing to take care of my grandparents, actual transit options other than driving, roads that didn't feel like I'm riding a bloody jackhammer instead of a car, little things like that.

[None]

My roommate couldn't afford to take his job in Bumfuck, Nowhere if I wasn't here sharing the rent with him. He's employed by the fed. It's literally too expensive to work on one's own for so many people. He's coming up on thirty and only just now beginning to qualify for jobs paying a living wage.

Thirty.

That 5% saved off the top over a year is enough to replace a flat tire. Heaven fucking forbid it was his car that got destroyed by a truck left in neutral and not my car, or it happened that he could somehow make the rent anyways and I couldn't lend him mine, or if I didn't work a remote job and so would need my car on a daily basis.

THIS is how close to fucked so, so many people are. Day after day after day. I'm very privileged to have the kinds of safety nets I do, and to be making more money than anyone in my friend circle. I resent that they don't have nearly the opportunities or securities available to them that I do, and I want them to have that. I want them to have it better. I want them not to need to go four in together if they want a home, or to share four people to a beater car to make the rent payment. I want them not to need to resort to lentils & rice to save 5% for their next flat tire.

I don't think I'll actually accept my roommate's rent payment when it comes time to square it up. He'll need it to move to his next position.

[McTraveller]

So how much is this friend short per month? $100?  $200?  What are they pulling in a month?  If it's more that $1500, they should be able to make it work.

NOTE: the simplest thing people forget to do when "poor" is to fix their W-4 so they don't have any income tax withholding. This can amount to $100s extra per month in your pocket.  I guess I take that knowledge for granted...

[MrRoboto75]

"WhY DoNt YoU JuSt WoRk HaRdEr"

-people who have never, ever rewarded my hard work and take it for granted every single damn day.

[Frumple]

So how much is this friend short per month? $100?  $200?  What are they pulling in a month?  If it's more that $1500, they should be able to make it work.

NOTE: the simplest thing people forget to do when "poor" is to fix their W-4 so they don't have any income tax withholding. This can amount to $100s extra per month in your pocket.

Like... except, it doesn't? It spreads potential tax rebates across months instead of a lump sum, but you're still out the exact same amount of money to income tax, and messing around with that probably causes more trouble than it's worth because it makes the tax process more fiddly. It's hard enough for folks stressed and overworked to deal with taxes as is, without adding that extra pile of effort on top of it.

That's not a simple thing, and it's not something a lot of people "forget" to do, it's something they're aware of and don't do because of the downsides involved.

[McTraveller]

Yeah, and I'd rather use that tax rebate every single month to, oh I dunno, pay bills, then get it all after tax time and not be able to pay bills during the year?  Or if you're "wealthy" to be able to invest it every month, instead of all at once at the end of the year?

I'd argue that people who use the tax refund as a savings account are foolish - they are exacting a large opportunity cost on themselves.

Partly I blame the education system - things like personal finance are not on the "required curriculum" that makes up standardized tests*.  I will even let you say this is part of the Conspiracy.


*Well it wasn't when I was in school anyway, and my kids haven't had it yet as of completing 3rd grade.

[Frumple]

I'd argue that people who use the tax refund as a savings account are foolish - they are exacting a large opportunity cost on themselves.

Like, I literally just said a fair few are doing it specifically to make the tax process less burdensome, not "as a savings account". Gods know I don't fuck around with it specifically for that reason. I'm choosing one reliable opportunity cost over a different, less reliable one.

Don't blame the education system on this one, blame the scumshit that make the tax process harder than it needs to be.

[None]

Are we here just to 'make it work?' He's a seasonal worker across several state lines, so his taxes are complicated. I don't actually know how much he pulls in a month, but it was little enough that leaving alone wasn't sensible.

Say we go with $1500, though. Rent and utilities together is about a thousand. Portion out, I dunno, another $150 for food if you're feeling generous, and that leaves a 'very comfortable $350'. Hack another hundred off for gas, why not, maybe another fifty for medications/expendible home goods. $200 a month to pocket. Maybe treat yourself once a month to donuts from the gas station and one six-pack a month and call it $190. Never spending a dollar out elsewhere. No takeout, no day pass at the state park, no pints at the pub, no live music attending, no other food treats, no replacing a failing phone or CD drive. Let's pretend for the sake of pretension that insurance is free, else you can probably wipe another hundred for discount car/health insurance.

Reality is that this hypothetical $90 per month after insurance has to last the empty months between seasonal positions, too. Forget the flat tire.

Fun ain't frugal, so fuck joy. Pets? No. Houseplants? Wasteful. Posters for the wall? Idiot. Hobby? Don't be stupid. You'll count peas and you'll like it.

Let's do that for another 35 years and retire at a nice 65. Fuck it, exclude inflation right now since wages aren't keeping up with that. Your total accrued life savings are $79,800, having never spent a dime replacing/fixing your car, bought property, had a medical emergency, or experienced any joy in your goddamn life past a six pack of beer and some donuts once a month. Let's hope home prices haven't increased in 35 years along with inflation- you juuuuuuuuust might finally be able to afford your tiny ramshackle fixer-upper forever home or an empty wooded lot from a tax-delinquent state auction in the middle of Who The Fuck Knows Where, Wisconsin, town population 1,000!

The better jobs don't start ten years after graduating college, so when do they?

[McTraveller]

So what government policy/policies would you put in place to resolve this?

I'm legitimately interested in any combination of programs to reduce their expenses or increase their income.  My only caveat is the programs must be sustainable - not just a short-term thing.

Simply "increase taxes on the rich and distribute to the poor" won't really help - that doesn't help increase supply and reduce demand pressure.  I'd rather see "increase taxes on the rich and use the funds to build houses priced for entry-level buyers."  Not "provide financing for entry-level buyers" but literally, directly, "pay people to build houses priced for the 20th percentile" or something like that.

Incidentally, if you have $80k in savings at retirement (accumulated from age 18 to 65), you are supposedly in the 78th percentile for retirement savings.  Apparently the median is only $1200 (!)

[Rolan7]

It's actually not the responsibility of the overworked non-economists to propose policy.  There are highly paid professionals and representatives whose job is supposedly to make this a liveable arrangement.

Health care coverage on par with the rest of the world would be a good place to start, just to remove a little of the *random* terror so people can focus on the day-to-day livelihood stuff.

[Lord Shonus]

That's the equivalent of a full-time job making $8.60 an hour, which exist but are not common. I don't live in a high COL area, and minimum wage in Ohio isn't particularly good (something like 8.75), but I don't think I could find a job paying that little. "Effective minimum wage" here is closer to $10 or $11, and most fast food places are offering $14.

Not doubting your claim or estimate, but it isn't as common a situation as you might think.

Oh, and inflation's already coming back down - it was spiked by a combination of supply-chain fuckery (due to COVID) and the spike in gas prices (due to a combination of delayed effects from COVID (the insane price drop in 2020 caused a supply glut that caused a production drop that caused a supply shortage) and the war in Ukraine (taking Russian oil out of most parts of the market scrambled everything for a while) that is also declining. It is just hard to see because of the way inflation is reported - it is reported in reference to the previous year, and 2021 had record low levels of inflation.

[None]

Hahah just kidding he'd still be underwater on student loan interest millennials don't get to retire

and in the hypothetical scenario, he never got married or had kids because weddings and kids cost money

Rolan's right. I'm not an expert in policy, I'm just mad that this kind of injustice is considered sufficient for Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Wage slavery is the American Dream now.

Hypothetically though, a minimum wage that grew with inflation/cost of living/workplace productivity, decoupling insurance from employment, and regulation of student loans would go pretty far in getting anyone a step up.