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[Frumple]

It's a common enough sentiment I've heard it fairly often from preachers and churchgoers despite staying well the hell away from the churches in my community for most of my life, shit infects even general discussion outside of them. Most physical issues in general are attributed as due to punishment for the sins of adam and eve, with ones afflicting women in particular being attributed to eve's specifically. It's why we die at all according to those folks, why sickness exists in any capacity, and eve's so-called greater sin reaps greater affliction.

It's one of the common christian apologetic answers to the question of evil, and the afflictions we suffer are punishment for our (inherited) sins. If that sounds like a remarkably shit position to hold, well. Yes. Yes, it is.

[Dunamisdeos]

If it helps I find it to be a shit position from every possible angle, including a theological one.

[EuchreJack]

It's a common enough sentiment I've heard it fairly often from preachers and churchgoers despite staying well the hell away from the churches in my community for most of my life, shit infects even general discussion outside of them. Most physical issues in general are attributed as due to punishment for the sins of adam and eve, with ones afflicting women in particular being attributed to eve's specifically. It's why we die at all according to those folks, why sickness exists in any capacity, and eve's so-called greater sin reaps greater affliction.

It's one of the common christian apologetic answers to the question of evil, and the afflictions we suffer are punishment for our (inherited) sins. If that sounds like a remarkably shit position to hold, well. Yes. Yes, it is.

...sadly, many churches are the very places Jesus set out to destroy in his ministry.

[Telgin]

Unless I'm forgetting, I think it's explicitly stated in Genesis that women suffer in childbirth because of Eve's actions, and it seems to be a commonly held belief in the churches I've visited.  It's definitely also believed to be the case that everything sucks now because of Adam and Eve in general, and it's just too bad we were born to suffer in it and go to Hell to be tortured forever if you don't try to atone for it.  I actually find it pretty interesting that the churches around here don't seem to preach predestination.

That said and irritated distractions aside, I don't recall anyone protesting things like medical care for gynecological issues here, or even protesting contraception for that matter.  Abortion is a different matter.  They definitely think you're a dirty sinner who's going to Hell for voting for a Democrat because they're all baby killers and you have to vote for Republicans because only they want to protect babies.

I guess it's possible that things like contraception just haven't ever come up in church somehow, but my understanding was that Protestants generally didn't have a problem with it.

[None]

Mate, it's not unusual that parents wouldn't get their daughters the HPV vaccine for fear that it'd make them slutty, and it's still a recent thing that the HPV is even considered for men.

Grew up in a protestant household. Sister did not get the HPV vaccine. I didn't either, but I was never told I wasn't getting it because it wasn't even considered that maybe I could.

[Telgin]

That's something I honestly just haven't ever heard discussed in church but I totally believe you.  I don't have any sisters so it never came up in my household either.

Of course, because everything is political now and by extension a religious issue, a dangerous number of people in the churches I know are staunchly anti-vax.  That's primarily a COVID vaccine issue, but I suspect that a lot of these people probably have transferred their dangerous thinking to vaccines in general now that it's become such a talking point.  On those grounds they would have opposed an HPV vaccine even if not for the sexual connotations.

[hector13]

I was under the impression some religious folks didn’t like vaccines because some are derived from the cells of a foetus from a while back.

Fakedit: from a website of dubious veracity, some vaccines are from viruses grown in foetal cells of elective abortions from the ‘60s and ‘80s.

Actual edit: the website is apparently the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, so possibly not that dubious.

[delphonso]

The anti-covid-vax movement has gained incredible ground for anti-vax in general and we will see a horrific increase in measles probably 4 years from now...

[wierd]

The same people that want to restrict access to women's health, (due to contravening 'god's will'), are the same ones that want to 'save grandma!' at any cost.

I have 0 sympathy for thier position.


The anti-vax, anti-science movements are what happens when you coddle people's beliefs as if they were facts.

Again, 0 sympathy.

[MaxTheFox]

Despite myself being very strongly religious, my stance on abortion is barely influenced by religion. The Bible doesn't mention abortion, unless I missed that.

[McTraveller]

The problem I have with abortion is that the vast majority of abortions are "because I want to" not because it was medically necessary or due to forced intercourse. The statistics are not in question here.  It's the mentality that it's an inconvenience or hardship and heaven forbid I might have to consider someone other than myself.  And that goes on not just the side of the pregnant woman, but also on her family or whatever influences (often male parent!) think it will make them look bad or whatever. I'd wager it's probably more on those influences than on the pregnant.

I also have a problem with most of the vocal "Christian" groups' statements* on it. That demographic is so hypocritical it hurts: the anti-abortion folks are often anti-immigration, anti-welfare, anti-climate-responsible, anti-public-health, xenophobic, and more.  It pains me that their caricature is what is taken to represent all Christians.

The other thing I'd like to observe is that I think the claims that there is some vast conspiracy to oppress women here are overreach. I think that oppression of women due to consequences of abortion law is an emergent effect, not its primary goal. I think that the vast majority of the opponents of abortion really do just think it's wrong to prevent new lives from having a chance. I'm talking the unwashed masses here of course. I mean maybe the folks in smoke-filled rooms really are saying "hahaha how we can oppress women again!" but I don't think it's as obvious as that.

I think many of these people are really actually just focused on "how can I get more voters, and more voter-associated money in my pocket?" and the rest is collateral damage so to speak.

Spoiler: *Regarding "pain in childbirth" (click to show/hide)

I think the problem with this is that people take the first chapters of Genesis literally instead of according to their literary genre.  This means they miss the point: the takeaway from "pain in childbirth is increased; working in the fields will be difficult instead of easy" shouldn't be that "Oh hah God said it would be painful so get over it" but "there are consequences of trying to decide what's right and wrong for ourselves, and those consequences are often painful."

This is not a new theology either; that view has been around for millennia.  The view that "pain is a punishment" is actually new; what made Jesus message radical was  "pain is the natural state now because everyone's only looking out for themselves and trying to save themselves. If you look out for others and let me, I will save you."

[MrRoboto75]

the vast majority of the opponents of abortion really do just think it's wrong to prevent new lives from having a chance.

the anti-abortion folks are often anti-welfare, anti-climate-responsible, anti-public-health, and more.

Some chance, that.

Seriously, if the unaborted child suffered sudden infant death syndrome a day after birth, that's a victory to them.

[MaxTheFox]

The problem I have with abortion is that the vast majority of abortions are "because I want to" not because it was medically necessary or due to forced intercourse. The statistics are not in question here.  It's the mentality that it's an inconvenience or hardship and heaven forbid I might have to consider someone other than myself.  And that goes on not just the side of the pregnant woman, but also on her family or whatever influences (often male parent!) think it will make them look bad or whatever. I'd wager it's probably more on those influences than on the pregnant.

I also have a problem with most of the vocal "Christian" groups' statements* on it. That demographic is so hypocritical it hurts: the anti-abortion folks are often anti-immigration, anti-welfare, anti-climate-responsible, anti-public-health, xenophobic, and more.  It pains me that their caricature is what is taken to represent all Christians.

The other thing I'd like to observe is that I think the claims that there is some vast conspiracy to oppress women here are overreach. I think that oppression of women due to consequences of abortion law is an emergent effect, not its primary goal. I think that the vast majority of the opponents of abortion really do just think it's wrong to prevent new lives from having a chance. I'm talking the unwashed masses here of course. I mean maybe the folks in smoke-filled rooms really are saying "hahaha how we can oppress women again!" but I don't think it's as obvious as that.

I think many of these people are really actually just focused on "how can I get more voters, and more voter-associated money in my pocket?" and the rest is collateral damage so to speak.

Spoiler: *Regarding "pain in childbirth" (click to show/hide)

I think the problem with this is that people take the first chapters of Genesis literally instead of according to their literary genre.  This means they miss the point: the takeaway from "pain in childbirth is increased; working in the fields will be difficult instead of easy" shouldn't be that "Oh hah God said it would be painful so get over it" but "there are consequences of trying to decide what's right and wrong for ourselves, and those consequences are often painful."

This is not a new theology either; that view has been around for millennia.  The view that "pain is a punishment" is actually new; what made Jesus message radical was  "pain is the natural state now because everyone's only looking out for themselves and trying to save themselves. If you look out for others and let me, I will save you."

My point exactly.

[martinuzz]

Sadly, Afghanistan is becoming more and more like Texas.

After forbidding high school education for women, today the Taliban also decreed that women are only allowed to go outside in a fully face covering burqa, just like they did in their previous reign.

[Frumple]

The other thing I'd like to observe is that I think the claims that there is some vast conspiracy to oppress women here are overreach. I think that oppression of women due to consequences of abortion law is an emergent effect, not its primary goal.

Like, this flies in the face of what we're seeing from these recent anti-abortion laws in particular (that, unlike common ones in the past, specifically target the pregnant folks involved instead of the provider and in some cases are fucking tailored to get women killed or injured, ala the horseshit with ectopic pregnancies) and things like the persistent drumbeat of trying to (and often succeeding) throw women in jail for miscarriage or stillbirth. It flies in the face of anti-abortion advocates also doing their damnedest to kneecap any other form of family planning or reproductive healthcare, or any sort of child or parental support what-so-fucking-ever.

Ruining the lives of pregnant women is extremely, extremely clearly a primary goal of the people enacting these policies and the people supporting them. It's not emergent, it's front and center and the shitsacks trying to criminalize abortion to get women killed have made that absolutely abundantly plain. If you buy the horseshit they care about children foremost (or at all, for that matter), you've been caught in one of the smokescreens these shits are throwing up to justify atrocity.