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[LordBaal]

Yup, most of the problems in the world, if not all would be solved with education, either that or elaborated giant ninja robot duels.

[Sirus]

To be fair, education is needed to design and build giant ninja robots. So we could totally have both.

[EuchreJack]

Eh, some truly stupid ideas can only come from being overeducated.

[hector13]

Being educated doesn’t innoculate you from being a tit.

If you were a tit before you were educated, you’ll very likely still be a tit afterward.

[None]

damn tits taking all the fun out of tits

If I had to go through a rigorous physical therapy for something, or an incredible weight-loss routine, or some kind of allergy therapy so I could eat hazelnuts, suffering every day from nausea, scratchiness, discomfort, and the very fuckin' real possibility that anaphylaxis takes my life without medical intervention, I'd sure as fuck like the option to opt in or opt out to any of these particular treatments. Pregnancy is no different. I'm lucky that most people don't sneak hazelnut or nutella into your average baked good and I can act with some cognizance about what I eat, but I can't help it if someone's snuck hazelnut powder into a cookie without telling me and launches me into a potential medical emergency. (that's happened before, by the way.)

But hey, people have epipens, and most people don't die of hazelnuts, so why would anyone label their food products with the potential containment of such innocuous, totally natural tree nuts? You know what, why distribute epipens at all, except to the rich? All I knew is that I was hungry and that cookie looked tasty...

Il, I'm not trying to do that. The argument for abortion would be damn different. I'm just pretty tired of people downplaying, intentionally or not, the shit mothers have to go through to give birth. It's a problem orthogonal to abortion itself, and ignoring it causes pretty damn significant issues for folks.

It's incredibly common for it to take months to years, even for a relatively uncomplicated birth, for the mother to recover from the literal physical damage involved. Most societies I'm aware of are near bloody silent on that, and they shouldn't be. It's not wokeness, it's wanting to stop goddamn shitting on the realities of what the mothers in our societies are dealing with.

Right? My sister had infection and fever in the process of her childbirth. Modern medicine is marvelous in that it was not, by consequence, a dire medical condition. We've such advances because we needed that kind of medical knowledge to save lives. Wind it back a hundred years, who knows if she'd have lived through the process.

[Vector]

My mom had a 100% normal pregnancy/childbirth with me and her face was paralyzed from Bell's palsy, meaning that for like the first five years or so of my life, my mom smiled at me very little.

Bell's palsy is a normal consequence of labor.


So's fistula! Or a ripped perineum!


This is part of why, among the ancient ... Romans, I think, the life expectancy for a woman was about 30, and the life expectancy for a man was about twice that. Childbirth, alone.


The people who are getting grossed out by discussion of the, yes, normal discussions of normal consequences of labor should really think about that before discussing whether abortion should be permitted or not. People who join the army need to have some kind of idea that they're going to be asked to kill other people, and comprehensive sex ed requires an understanding of what pregnancy is and entails before we run our mouths off making traumatic medical decisions for other people.

My girlfriend really wants to be pregnant for some reason, so if we have kids, she will be giving birth to them. I will not. Conveniently, she's also a gender that matches the whole childbirth thing more conventionally, whereas I usually go through my thought process of "where and how to get an abortion" about once a week and have since middle school, because I desperately don't want to be pregnant. I desperately do not want to be pregnant. I'm starting martial arts again partly because if abortions become unavailable, I need to become a lot better at fighting off attackers ... just in case. Because as aforementioned: I desperately do not want to be pregnant. The best thing along with supporting abortion is making it so I'm a harder target.


I am now going to use the "woman" language throughout because in my experience it invokes more sympathy than including the trans people who are actually more likely than cisgender women to experience sexual assault.

The thing about means testing is that it requires proof that the events in question have happened: proof that the sex in question was rape, which delegitimizes the pregnancy, or proof that it was incest. Proof that a fetus is abnormal is generally super-easy, but not the other two, because it jeopardizes a man's reputation as part of the proof.

We know that virtually all rapes are not prosecuted. It's really "nice" to imagine that a person will be able to:

0. Know she is pregnant
1. Get to safety
2. Prove that she was raped to a court or medical provider, providing viable evidence of such which was collected safely somehow, and not just her word (the problem here among other things is that it becomes a criminal proceeding and you need to call witnesses, so 1 must occur before 2)
3. Get an abortion

all in the timeline of "not a squicky late-term pregnancy."

Let's look at our current legal system: do you think that this is likely to work out?

(Please also remember that violence overwhelmingly comes from partners, not stranger danger. So it is usually harder to access things like a rape kit, which are easier to get when you don't, say, live with the boyfriend who pretended to use a condom, or whatever)

One more thing is that previously, receiving an abortion was not the criminal matter. It was giving the abortion. Now, they are working on prosecuting abortions as homocide on the part of the recipient. Miscarriages, which end about 1/3 of all pregnancies at this point, can look a lot like the aftereffects of an early-term abortion and often require medical aftercare (abortion) to evacuate the remains inside the uterus, because otherwise they can rot inside the woman.

So now, if we have a miscarriage, especially if we are a member of a marginalized group and not "just" a woman, we have to debate whether we go to get our needed care, or if we just tough it out at home, because we don't want to have to deal with potential murder charges on top of our grief.


You are fighting once again over whether or not abortion should be legal while the entire fucking city built on top of its legality burns down around your ears and people are suffering. For those in other countries, fine. Whatever. I paid for abortifacients to be droned into Poland some time ago. For the Americans: seriously??

And for those who say: "It should be illegal because I enjoy the fruits of her labor:" double-seriously? When we outlaw abortion, we legalize theft. Theft of a woman's body, often her profession, perhaps her sense of safety, or health, for the wellbeing of another -- not just the child, but the wellbeing of other people who wanted her to make that child for them, and who might be disappointed by that woman refusing to do her unpaid labor.

If a woman wants to have a child, that is an amazing and wonderful thing. Forcing her into working for her family or the society, should she find it against her own wishes, is deeply immoral.

No forced labor. At-will employment. Work for pay.

[EuchreJack]

To be clear, the Supreme Court's decision is not to ban abortion, but to allow individual states to ban abortion.

Some states are unlikely to ban abortion. Thus, those who can afford to travel to a Pro-Abortion state should be able to still get an abortion. And yes, some Pro-Abortion states will restrict abortions to residents of their state. But just like Nevada makes it's fortune on allowing people to do things they can't do in other states, you can be sure at least one Pro-Abortion state will cash in by allowing anyone to go to their state for an abortion.

I say this to offer some degree of comfort.

[MaxTheFox]

Well I am... kinda fine with early term abortions for those reasons you outlined, Vector. It would still be better if that wouldn't need to be done, but apparently we can't have good sex ed.

[wierd]

My mom had a 100% normal pregnancy/childbirth with me and her face was paralyzed from Bell's palsy, meaning that for like the first five years or so of my life, my mom smiled at me very little.

Bell's palsy is a normal consequence of labor.


So's fistula! Or a ripped perineum!


This is part of why, among the ancient ... Romans, I think, the life expectancy for a woman was about 30, and the life expectancy for a man was about twice that. Childbirth, alone.


The people who are getting grossed out by discussion of the, yes, normal discussions of normal consequences of labor should really think about that before discussing whether abortion should be permitted or not. People who join the army need to have some kind of idea that they're going to be asked to kill other people, and comprehensive sex ed requires an understanding of what pregnancy is and entails before we run our mouths off making traumatic medical decisions for other people.

My girlfriend really wants to be pregnant for some reason, so if we have kids, she will be giving birth to them. I will not. Conveniently, she's also a gender that matches the whole childbirth thing more conventionally, whereas I usually go through my thought process of "where and how to get an abortion" about once a week and have since middle school, because I desperately don't want to be pregnant. I desperately do not want to be pregnant. I'm starting martial arts again partly because if abortions become unavailable, I need to become a lot better at fighting off attackers ... just in case. Because as aforementioned: I desperately do not want to be pregnant. The best thing along with supporting abortion is making it so I'm a harder target.


I am now going to use the "woman" language throughout because in my experience it invokes more sympathy than including the trans people who are actually more likely than cisgender women to experience sexual assault.

The thing about means testing is that it requires proof that the events in question have happened: proof that the sex in question was rape, which delegitimizes the pregnancy, or proof that it was incest. Proof that a fetus is abnormal is generally super-easy, but not the other two, because it jeopardizes a man's reputation as part of the proof.

We know that virtually all rapes are not prosecuted. It's really "nice" to imagine that a person will be able to:

0. Know she is pregnant
1. Get to safety
2. Prove that she was raped to a court or medical provider, providing viable evidence of such which was collected safely somehow, and not just her word (the problem here among other things is that it becomes a criminal proceeding and you need to call witnesses, so 1 must occur before 2)
3. Get an abortion

all in the timeline of "not a squicky late-term pregnancy."

Let's look at our current legal system: do you think that this is likely to work out?

(Please also remember that violence overwhelmingly comes from partners, not stranger danger. So it is usually harder to access things like a rape kit, which are easier to get when you don't, say, live with the boyfriend who pretended to use a condom, or whatever)

One more thing is that previously, receiving an abortion was not the criminal matter. It was giving the abortion. Now, they are working on prosecuting abortions as homocide on the part of the recipient. Miscarriages, which end about 1/3 of all pregnancies at this point, can look a lot like the aftereffects of an early-term abortion and often require medical aftercare (abortion) to evacuate the remains inside the uterus, because otherwise they can rot inside the woman.

So now, if we have a miscarriage, especially if we are a member of a marginalized group and not "just" a woman, we have to debate whether we go to get our needed care, or if we just tough it out at home, because we don't want to have to deal with potential murder charges on top of our grief.


You are fighting once again over whether or not abortion should be legal while the entire fucking city built on top of its legality burns down around your ears and people are suffering. For those in other countries, fine. Whatever. I paid for abortifacients to be droned into Poland some time ago. For the Americans: seriously??

And for those who say: "It should be illegal because I enjoy the fruits of her labor:" double-seriously? When we outlaw abortion, we legalize theft. Theft of a woman's body, often her profession, perhaps her sense of safety, or health, for the wellbeing of another -- not just the child, but the wellbeing of other people who wanted her to make that child for them, and who might be disappointed by that woman refusing to do her unpaid labor.

If a woman wants to have a child, that is an amazing and wonderful thing. Forcing her into working for her family or the society, should she find it against her own wishes, is deeply immoral.

No forced labor. At-will employment. Work for pay.

It is also why midwifery was a thing, and had extensive pre-labor care to minimize/prevent these injuries.  (such exercises are not normally done today, as they involve assisted dilation of the vaginal and cervical openings, etc-- Midwifery was heavily kaboshed by the rise of male physicians, who had some... peculiar... views about female care.)

Other duties often carried out by midwives, were assisted botanical abortions. It was very commonplace in the ancient and medieval world.  (again, died out due to legal pressure with the rise of male physicians, and religious dogmatism.)

In the current world, fistulation is a very common occurrence in countries lacking good post-pardum medical care, and it has a lot of outstanding health complications, indeed. 


The modern abortion clinic / planned parenthood services, are just the modern incarnation of midwifery services, sans the birthing care-- but not always.

Once again, a male dominated political system wants to put the kabosh on it.  "Entirely predictable" consequences will result.  Just as happened in prior eras.  What Alito is suggesting with this repeal, has been seen before, and it will end just as badly for women.

[MaxTheFox]

Also a miscarriage should not be considered the same thing as an induced abortion.

[wierd]

The notion that a miscarriage is somehow a thing to place blame over, is very much a "post catholic" European attache. (at least in terms of European jurisprudence, from which US's common law derives)

Miscarriage is a serious thing, and needs medical care and followup, and often counseling.  It is not a thing to make light of.


The notion that it was a failure to produce a child, (with associated stigma), is very much an attache of the "women as property" legal fixtures of later European jurisprudence.  It is a thing that needs to be ejected, not coddled. It should be treated with the severity and seriousness it deserves.

[scriver]

"Botanical" abortions? Luke inducing abortions from plants, like that one the Romans used up?

Also a miscarriage should not be considered the same thing as an induced abortion.

I can agree with that to a point; but there is a gray area in between and not entirely clear cut. Sometimes the pregnancy continues (ie, no natural "expulsion") despite the fetus no longer being viable or dying, which can lead to infection or blood poisoning and risk the life of the mother (and may damage her organs to the point of making her infertile and I'm able to hear children in the future). Because the pregnancy process doesn't always stop on it's own, it still needs to be actively aborted (ie stopped). Abortion as a term is used for all treatment where the pregnancy process is interrupted, because all it means is "stop" or "interrupt".

[wierd]

Yes, but also no.

There are dozens of botanical abortificients, such as pennyroyal, yarrow, et al.

If you research (and I mean as an actual academic exercise, not some new-age homeopathic quack feel good shit) the apothecary guides from antiquity to the early medieval period, you will find hundreds of plant species that have been used for the purpose.   Not just limited to the one the Greeks and Romans harvested to extinction.

Like any good research project, it is important to verify the claims in the literature.  Many such plant species are by now *VERY* well known to science, and their abortificient properties well studied.  It is merely an academic exercise to look up the old books, and cross reference against modern knowledge, to derive reasonably safe dosages and preparation methods. (and thus winnow out the dross.)

In terms of my initial statement though, such folk knowledge was well honed as an art;  It was historically practiced by women, FOR women.  There wasn't room for snake-oil.  The dangerous preparations tended to be proffered by the charlatan male physicians, with their "curious" notions about women's bodies.

[scriver]

That one roman plant one was just an example

In terms of my initial statement though, such folk knowledge was well honed as an art;  It was historically practiced by women, FOR women.  There wasn't room for snake-oil.  The dangerous preparations tended to be proffered by the charlatan male physicians, with their "curious" notions about women's bodies.

Don't over-romanticise folk medicine. It's not somehow less prone snake oilery or the other pitfalls of folk remedies just because it's "by women for women". As far as I know, a lot of those plants work for abortions by means of being poisonous and the growing fetus being more susceptible to that than the mother, or by causing the mother-body's defence mechanisms to make the womb inhospitable.

[wierd]

Thats basically how all abortifacients work.

Some are more dangerous than others, but they were administered with care.

Modern ones are often hormonal, and make the woman's body reject the fetus.