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[martinuzz]

In my hypothetical situation all other avenues of locating the children before they die of thirst are exhausted.
We're talking about a psychopath here who had (before his capture) and still has every intention of letting the children die.

Let's say we already offered him enough money to become the richest man on earth and he still pointed and laughed.

[wierd]

There are drugs that supposedly help make a subject more pliant to interrogation, by reducing their executive function, so that they cannot easily formulate a lie.

There are also drugs that restrict/prevent the ability to create long term memories.


A careful use of both kinds of drugs could be used, along with a good interrogator, to extract consistent information from a subject. (You cannot be certain that the information is accurate-- but the combination of consistent + unable to remember having been questioned previously, would indicate that the subject is telling you what they believe to be the truth.)

[martinuzz]

There are drugs that supposedly help make a subject more pliant to interrogation, by reducing their executive function, so that they cannot easily formulate a lie.

There are also drugs that restrict/prevent the ability to create long term memories.


A careful use of both kinds of drugs could be used, along with a good interrogator, to extract consistent information from a subject. (You cannot be certain that the information is accurate-- but the combination of consistent + unable to remember having been questioned previously, would indicate that the subject is telling you what they believe to be the truth.)

Like I said, I consider that option to fall under the 'torture' category. (Because as far as I understand, the drugs used for that leave the recipient a mental cripple, or even a locked-in syndrome coma patient afterwards which IMO is just as cruel as cutting off a few fingers and toes. But perhaps new generation truth drugs and suggestive drugs cause less brain damage)

[wierd]

Not exactly.

One such combination is scopolamine + morphine.

Morphine is frequently given to alleviate pain.  Scopolamine is used to treat motion sickness, and is also used to dry up secretions in people who are end of life.


Together, the cocktail produces "twightlight sleep"

As the wikipedia article points out, it was once used to alleviate child birthing pains.  Properly dosed and administered, it would leave no lasting effects.

[None]

Hot countertake, the hypothetical psychopath you captured isn't the one that did it. Torture is for sadism, not for information, and has no place in a judicial process.

To bring it back to American politics, here are a few ways we've used torture and here is our alliance that says we shouldn't.

[martinuzz]

The psychopath has not only admitted of having trapped the children, he also boasts proudly about it and says the idea of their slow death is giving him a boner.

Note that I do not wish to advocate torture, I just responded to Svarte Troner's absolute statement that torture is never justifiable with a hypothetical situation in which it could be, for lack of alternatives.

[Rolan7]

Sorry I'm a bit behind heh

Torture is not reliable, but could yield result. The other option in my hypothetical, not torturing, is certain to kill 10 children.

(There are truth drugs, but I consider those just one of the tools of torture)

That makes things easier: Use drugs/sleep deprivation and other disgusting interrogation techniques to get the information (since in this hypothetical they give the only possibility of success).

I'd want to call those "enhanced interrogation techniques", except that my country poisoned that term with savage (yet less-lethal) torture like waterboarding.

In both cases we have to consider the effects of policy.  If a state is allowed to extract information via drugs and various non-violent coercions, how does that affect the relationship between people and their government?  It seems like a threat to a free democracy if a SUSPECT can be interrogated in such a way.  Even if the information is inadmissible in court, only used for contrived Twenty-Four-style rescues, it's still a chilling violation of privacy and bodily autonomy.

I can't say how far I'd stretch my morality in order to save a loved one (though I hope I'd be pragmatic rather than bloodthirsty, using negotiation and nonviolent coercion if appropriate).  And yet my government "doesn't negotiate with terrorists" and absolutely cannot be allowed to torture people, because the consequences of those policies are disastrous.  Likewise, I would need to be held liable for breaking the law on behalf of my loved ones, because otherwise vigilantism runs free.

But yeah torture is mostly useless anyway outside the hypothetical

tldr edit:  I might interrogate someone (or punch a Nazi) and face the legal consequences, but it's never okay for it to become accepted policy.

[None]

Surely you could do a lot more in 24 hours with forensics resources and a deadline than you could threatening a guy with a power drill, who can still give you incorrect information.

[wierd]

"why not both!?"

[None]

Because people have rights, no matter how deplorable.

[wierd]

Indeed; the forced administration of such a pharmaceutical preparation is at the very least, a violation of body autonomy.

The devil in the details though, is that you have already violated this deplorable person's rights to body autonomy, by the mere act of incarcerating them. -- That is to say, "never violate another's rights" is not a valid option. You are forced to take that path.  The question is how far down that path will you go.

[None]

We HAVE a set path for that, you dolt, it's the whole goddamn judicial system. Due process. We have enshrined the rights of a person within and outside of incarceration. There's no question of 'how far,' it's written in law.

Given, the American judicial system is flawed, given how much of the world's prison population we contain (and our history of frivolous and cruel detainment at the borders/of Japanese Americans during WWII), but that ought to be leading the conversation away from torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners or detainees, not towards it. Jesus.

[dragdeler]

>"Gimme that"
>Elbows way to scopolamine-morphine cocktail
>Downs the thing in one take
>Scoffs
>Hurls a 6h hour long barrage of insults
>Nod off

You better take the insults to hearth because truth serum™.

[Rolan7]

o7
They better HOPE they can handle the truth!!

[wierd]

>"Gimme that"
>Elbows way to scopolamine-morphine cocktail
>Downs the thing in one take
>Scoffs
>Hurls a 6h hour long barrage of insults
>Nod off

You better take the insults to hearth because truth serum™.

It would be very difficult to correctly dose that cocktail for oral administration.  The intramuscular injection route is specified for a reason. It is easier to tune the regimen for a specific person's metabolic rate and body mass.

You might find, however, that you will have difficulty in producing complex strings of profanity, as your executive function will be greatly impaired by its effects. You will not be unconscious, but very damn close.