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[EuchreJack]

Plus it was not even a true halt in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, making this claim inaccurate in the first place. The Kerch Strait incident occurred in 2018 for example, and resulted Russian ships firing upon and seizing Ukrainian ones.

...and yet again, President Trump gets no credit whatsoever for refusing to engage with the Russians immediately after that incident.

Honestly, I'm getting sick of defending Trump.  The invasion not occurring during Trump's Presidency is actually only a minor point.

The major point, that is mysteriously getting lost in all this, is that the US could have done stuff to prevent this war, but failed to do so.

[hector13]

Since then it’s been pretty clear EJ just wants to post their perspective and move on. I’m still interested in that perspective, so I’ll continue responding in the hope I can delve deeper at some point.

Look, a lot of shit is going on.  I can't recall what my perspective was a week ago.  If there was something I posted that interested you, let me know and I'll see what follow up I can do.

I've avoided the AmeriPol thread for several years, for what seems to me to be rather obvious reasons.
It was only because of this War that I've posted in this thread. 
I've posted here because I believe American could have prevented it if the current Government wished to do so.

It is a fact that Putin didn't invade Ukraine during Trump's time in office.  The last invasion of 2014 occurred prior to Trump's time in office.
Apparently, these facts don't fit into the Anti-Trump Pro-Democrats beliefs, so they seem to get ignored/obscured.  Democrats like doing that in my country.

Hell, Biden's victory was more because Trump pissed off the media (and everyone else) than any actual merits of Biden.  The media got so biased leading up to Trump's loss.

While my concerns about this tread being an Echo Chamber are minor, the whole mainstream media in the US has become an Echo Chamber.

Ironically, this thread seems pointless.  Most of you aren't living in the United States, so what is the point?
Maybe I should let you go back to complaining about Stupid Foreigners being Stupid (foreigners being Americans in this context), and I'll stick to the Bad European Jokes thread.

It’s that kind of thing I want to explore! The only times politics comes up in my personal life is usually people railing against one side or the other and expecting me to agree with them, either way.

I have my own set of opinions on things, sure, and I will acknowledge they are different to your own (at least from your assertion that Trump is good and that Democrats are bad, I assume you are a conservative of some description) but that doesn’t mean I’m going to dismiss you out of hand.

Anyway, I suppose I should ask my questions, in the hope that the current dogpile doesn’t scare you off.

What is it about Trump (or the Republicans, perhaps?) that you think kept Putin/Russia from invading Ukraine?

What is it about Biden (or the Democrats in general) that you think encouraged (possibly not the best word but it’ll do) Putin/Russia that now was the right time to invade Ukraine?

PPE: what stuff could the US have done to stop the war? There were threats for sanctions in the lead up, alongside the whole thing with Putin’s demands about Ukraine not joining NATO, but what do you think should have been done that would have prevented this?

Bearing in mind, there are people in the thread who may disagree, and that’s not a knock on you personally, but the arguments you present.

[EuchreJack]

Here is a Fareed Zakaria article on the oil situation. I believe it is worth reading.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/03/biden-west-must-sanction-putins-oil-and-gas/

It involves buying oil from countries that we currently do not, which I am in favor of, and also increasing extraction in the US.
Here is a portion of it:

I can hear all the objections from right and left. Let me address a few. Much of this oil and gas will simply be substituted for (banned) Russian energy, so it is unlikely to cause net-higher emissions. There is even an environmental benefit. U.S. gas leaks less methane than Russian gas, and U.S. oil production is also less environmentally harmful than Russian production. In many places, the increase in natural gas could mean countries like Germany could use less coal, a dirtier fuel in nearly every way. In fact, the best way to cut carbon emissions in the short term — with current technologies and at scale — is to replace coal with natural gas.

All of these measures have downsides — some symbolic, some real. But to govern is to choose, and to govern in a crisis is to make hard, painful choices. The country that has best understood this is Germany. It has suspended its Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, announced plans to build two new terminals to receive liquefied natural gas, and acknowledged that it might have to use more coal and extend the life of its nuclear plants that were scheduled to be shuttered. These policies are coming from a coalition government whose second-most-important partner is the Green Party, which has historically been tenacious in its environmental goals.

The Biden administration has said that the stakes could not be higher. And it is right. If Putin’s aggression succeeds, we will live in a different world. So let us make sure that he does not.

This is a great article, and I feel that a window into America might explain things.
You see, US media has dedicated an EQUAL amount of time discussing The War in Ukraine and The Increased Fuel Prices.

[EuchreJack]

What is it about Trump (or the Republicans, perhaps?) that you think kept Putin/Russia from invading Ukraine?

What is it about Biden (or the Democrats in general) that you think encouraged (possibly not the best word but it’ll do) Putin/Russia that now was the right time to invade Ukraine?

PPE: what stuff could the US have done to stop the war? There were threats for sanctions in the lead up, alongside the whole thing with Putin’s demands about Ukraine not joining NATO, but what do you think should have been done that would have prevented this?

Bearing in mind, there are people in the thread who may disagree, and that’s not a knock on you personally, but the arguments you present.

1) My theory about Trump/Republicans is that their boisterous pro-military stance discouraged Putin.  As I've said before (and got attacked by Trump lovers), Trump and Putin are similar in some ways in their personality, so they counter each other. I'll add another theory: It's possible Putin thought Trump was just crazy enough to engage, even though he probably would have done the same as Biden is doing now.

2) Biden looks senile, or at least weak.  Democrats are generally depicted as peace loving and more open to military cuts.  During the lead up to the invasion, Biden didn't seem to have the backbone to stand up to Putin.  I'll give credit where credit is due, Biden's stepped up (or been successfully propped up) during this crisis.

3) While an unpopular idea, the US could have offered peacekeeping troops to the civil war in Ukraine that immediately preceded the Russian invasion.  The second US boots were in Ukraine, Putin would have been forced to call off the invasion.  It might not have been best for the US, however.  Sanctions before the War might have also meant something.

Ironically, Trump's classic "Show up and yell at everyone" might have been enough to deter Putin, as distasteful as most people find that tactic.

[Duuvian]

I like Fareed's idea also because he argues that it seems to have a reduced effect on global warming than usual extraction expansion schemes. I could wish for a too tiny tax not worth campaigning on to remove upon the increased production that goes towards fusion reactor research, but I also just thought of that and didn't check to see if it could be a good idea or not.

EDIT2: Unnecessary edit explanation removed

[delphonso]

1) My theory about Trump/Republicans is that their boisterous pro-military stance discouraged Putin. 
-
2) Biden looks senile, or at least weak.
-
3) While an unpopular idea, the US could have offered peacekeeping troops to the civil war in Ukraine that immediately preceded the Russian invasion. 

These are actually pretty interesting points, but I don't think the argument is very strong.

In basic, your argument looks something like this:
Trump was a strong, militaristic leader;
Putin feared a strong militaristic US;
Biden is not militaristic, or appears not to be.
If Putin feared the US, he wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.

Putin feared Trump, thus didn't invade. He did not fear Biden, so he did.

I'd say it breaks down in a few places: Trump was also the president who didn't start new wars, and leaned on that in his re-election campaign. It is equally reasonable that Putin would have invaded knowing that Trump would focus on his re-election.
There is also a lot of suspicious behavior between Trump and Putin, which could equally explain the lack of action from Putin, although this would be much stronger if Putin invaded the day Trump left office.
Biden/Democrats appear to be "anti-war" in the US, but in actuality have been very militaristic. I doubt Putin is informed by American media, and would know that US troops are more mobile under Dems.
Biden does look weak, which could mean a lot for an authoritarian like Putin, and I would be interested to see internal reports from the Kremlin on this topic specifically.

[Lord Shonus]

Biden literally gave a speech in which he justified the withdrawal from Afghanistan on the grounds that the US needed to be ready to deter Russian aggression in Europe (and Chinese in the Pacific). The only way he could have been more aggressive with the "Putin is a threat and we just might need to put him down" angle would be to invade Russia.

When the invasion buildup started, Biden was front-and-center in announcing what was coming and preparing the united front against it. The only way to do more would have been to first-strike the positioned units.

Once the invasion started, Biden excecuted the united front and has done everything short of active war. The only way to do more would be to send in US forces to start shooting Russians.


The only way to think that Biden is "weak" is to cover your eyes, shove your fingers in your ears, and scream "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" at the top of your voice.

[scriver]

I mean, it is in the ameripol thread, silly

At lesst from an enforcement standard, I guess.

That's true, and I apologise for that

Freedom of speech means the government can’t act against you because of what you say, it doesn’t mean other people aren’t allowed to suggest you stop being a prick.

This is what the American first amendment means. It is not the be all end all of freedom of speech, no matter show much Americans worship their constitution.

EJ did use a very American example in which freedom of speech should exist on the internet.

Well, I must admit I only glanced over the new replies until yours caught my I so I can't claim to have been contextually well seated. I'm just tired of seeing the Americanism "freedom of speech is only protection from the government" line, because it's simply not true. And while we can philosophise and argue about what exactly freedom of speech should constitute according to our own moral judgements (my own belief by the way is that freedom of speech has to mean reasonable protection from consequences, otherwise what kind of freedom is it?)  until we go blue, if we instead were to look at the closest thing to a universal definition we have, the UN declaration of rights, it goes further in both protecting people from consequences as well as not making any kind of mention of this freedom being limited to protection from the government.

[anewaname]

The following is just side-rail humor and not an attempt to derail the furious debating....

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...
Correction: Meteor struck Africa in 2018
...

Trump let that meteor through, because it wasn't going to hit his peeps; you know how he wants to lead all but represent the few.

We need a president of the world, vote for Trump! Deserving Leader of the world's nation-states!

[nenjin]

Biden literally gave a speech in which he justified the withdrawal from Afghanistan on the grounds that the US needed to be ready to deter Russian aggression in Europe (and Chinese in the Pacific). The only way he could have been more aggressive with the "Putin is a threat and we just might need to put him down" angle would be to invade Russia.

When the invasion buildup started, Biden was front-and-center in announcing what was coming and preparing the united front against it. The only way to do more would have been to first-strike the positioned units.

Once the invasion started, Biden excecuted the united front and has done everything short of active war. The only way to do more would be to send in US forces to start shooting Russians.


The only way to think that Biden is "weak" is to cover your eyes, shove your fingers in your ears, and scream "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" at the top of your voice.

I'm also getting sick of the "Biden could have stopped this" rhetoric while people simultaneously ignore everything he did and said up to the invasion. The subtext being what he should have done was immediately counterattack Russia with all US and NATO forces.

Newsflash: Nothing short of total annihilation would have stopped Putin from doing this. He wanted a war, he got a war. The only thing that would have stopped him is an even bigger war, which exactly no one with two braincells to rub together actually wants.

[EuchreJack]

I mean, it is in the ameripol thread, silly

At lesst from an enforcement standard, I guess.

That's true, and I apologise for that

Freedom of speech means the government can’t act against you because of what you say, it doesn’t mean other people aren’t allowed to suggest you stop being a prick.

This is what the American first amendment means. It is not the be all end all of freedom of speech, no matter show much Americans worship their constitution.

EJ did use a very American example in which freedom of speech should exist on the internet.

Well, I must admit I only glanced over the new replies until yours caught my I so I can't claim to have been contextually well seated. I'm just tired of seeing the Americanism "freedom of speech is only protection from the government" line, because it's simply not true. And while we can philosophise and argue about what exactly freedom of speech should constitute according to our own moral judgements (my own belief by the way is that freedom of speech has to mean reasonable protection from consequences, otherwise what kind of freedom is it?)  until we go blue, if we instead were to look at the closest thing to a universal definition we have, the UN declaration of rights, it goes further in both protecting people from consequences as well as not making any kind of mention of this freedom being limited to protection from the government.

You can't possibly be attacking me.
I was the one that was first accused of misusing Freedom of Speech by applying it BROADER than the American definition.
THEN, I explained what the ACTUAL American definition would be.

Personally, I believe that the term Government should be expanded to social media, such as Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.  Twitter taking down someone's messages is like the Phone Company turning off your phone because they don't like what you say when you're calling others.  There are better tools than outright censorship, and they actually have those tools.  I think they take themselves too seriously. There is also the business reason of claiming to purify the false information: it makes the advertisements look more legit.

Biden literally gave a speech in which he justified the withdrawal from Afghanistan on the grounds that the US needed to be ready to deter Russian aggression in Europe (and Chinese in the Pacific). The only way he could have been more aggressive with the "Putin is a threat and we just might need to put him down" angle would be to invade Russia.

When the invasion buildup started, Biden was front-and-center in announcing what was coming and preparing the united front against it. The only way to do more would have been to first-strike the positioned units.

Once the invasion started, Biden excecuted the united front and has done everything short of active war. The only way to do more would be to send in US forces to start shooting Russians.


The only way to think that Biden is "weak" is to cover your eyes, shove your fingers in your ears, and scream "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" at the top of your voice.

I'm also getting sick of the "Biden could have stopped this" rhetoric while people simultaneously ignore everything he did and said up to the invasion. The subtext being what he should have done was immediately counterattack Russia with all US and NATO forces.

Newsflash: Nothing short of total annihilation would have stopped Putin from doing this. He wanted a war, he got a war. The only thing that would have stopped him is an even bigger war, which exactly no one with two braincells to rub together actually wants.

Look, we're just getting over a pandemic where a bunch of people died, and now we're in a war that could end all life on Earth.
Many of us were not around during the Cold War, and this looks Hotter than that time period.
So try to keep that in mind in Real Life.  Not everyone is as happy to hear new information as I am.

[hector13]

Quickly as I need to finish a break, scriver isn’t attacking you, he’s arguing with me.

[Flying Teasets]

The state of American popular opinion worries me; I've met three Americans who've claimed Russia is a communist state.

[EuchreJack]

The state of American popular opinion worries me; I've met three Americans who've claimed Russia is a communist state.

I was actually wondering about that.  Is Putin Too Far Left or Too Far Right?
I mean, I see him as Fascist by another name.  But I had to think on that for a bit.
The political spectrum is actually a circle.  Too Far Left and Too Far Right get you basically the same state.

Quickly as I need to finish a break, scriver isn’t attacking you, he’s arguing with me.

Ok, have fun you too.  Gives me a break! 

[Duuvian]

The state of American popular opinion worries me; I've met three Americans who've claimed Russia is a communist state.

That's a holdover from the Cold War I think. I used to hear that a lot when I was younger from older people. It's kind of like an ancient meme. I could see how an American would default to that if they didn't follow the news or read a book on relevant topics or something.

Did you meet them on the internet recently or are they ones you ran into over the years?