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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4453272 times)

Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47505 on: February 01, 2022, 10:45:25 am »

(Yeah, I read about that. What's significant is that this is every Federal facility, which is nigh-on unprecedented, but a drop in the ocean given the domination in the 'prison market' of state/local incarcerations. One wonders how many revenger/revengee interactions are potentially in such places and yet still not locked down due to local lack of such overarching concern.)

If you remember, the POTUS between 44 and 46 did rant about MS-13 gangs, but in his rather more myopic manner that didn't so much classify MS-13 as being terrorist (or non-state actors) as classify large swathes of otherwise innocent people as potential MS-13 recruits.
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None

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47506 on: February 01, 2022, 03:18:46 pm »

So America includes North America includes Canada, right?

Y'all heard about the 'freedom convoy' of ten thousand (read: couple hundred maybe) trucks taking to the road to protest mandates (masks? vaccine? that the USA won't let them in?)? Heckling people wearing masks, pissing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, stealing from food banks, maybe flying a nazi flag? Y'know, those guys?

They've got their own comms channel, complete with insane drivel, singing, racism, and trolling by strangers. A helpful Twitter user has been doing a periodic blow-by-blow and it's kind of hilarious.

The updates, not the nasty shit the protest has done. Here's a reddit post aggregating everything that's happened.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 03:22:15 pm by None »
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47507 on: February 01, 2022, 03:52:28 pm »

Mara Salvatrucha has been a well-known gang for well over a decade now. They're considered one of the largest and most dangerous organized gangs in the US, and have chapters in many cities. Why they haven't been declared a terrorist organization.../shrug. Why is the mob, what's left of it, not considered a terrorist organization? Or the KKK? Or the Black Panthers? Or the Oath Keepers? Or....

There's this line in American thinking between "average criminality" and "political criminality." It's only upheld when it serves someone's agenda. People have been calling for the KKK to be marked as a domestic terrorist group since the label was created, way back when. But it's never stuck. I imagine declaring MS-13 a terrorist organization would be the first step in a larger crackdown on the organization.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47508 on: February 01, 2022, 04:26:07 pm »

Yeah.
I'd say, redraw the line to include crime organisations that purposedly make victims for the sole purpose of creating fear and obedience, like MS-13 with their 'rape' and 'control', and maffia syndicates that use 'protection rackets' and other means of terrifying the population under 'terrorists'.

There's a difference between bank robbers shooting a bank clerk, and a group of MS-13 robbing, raping and killing a random person.
The former's motive is getting away with bank robbery, the latter's motive is to instill mass fear, as is shown to reach all the way up to federal level now. They're so scared they won't let prisoners in 130 prisons out of their cells.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47509 on: February 01, 2022, 04:40:21 pm »

Racketeering almost always involves some form of intimidation. It's as American as Apple Pie.

Quote
There's a difference between bank robbers shooting a bank clerk, and a group of MS-13 robbing, raping and killing a random person.

This isn't specific to MS-13. Many criminal gangs make assault, rape or murder a requirement of joining. The thinking being that once your hands are dirty, you are much less likely to rat on the gang because you'd be incriminated as well. MS-13 just has the "advantage" of lots of press coverage.
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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47510 on: February 01, 2022, 04:52:51 pm »

Most likely, the organizations have some ties with the goverment somehow, at some levels, shady or not so, and are "tolerated" because it works in favor of some one or some groups in power, and those gangs that are not are automatically branded as terrorist.

However the definition of a "regular" gang and a terrorist is "ideology". The first are motivated by money and its so outright stated or very explicit, and while continuosly break the law their goal is not taking out the goverment expresly or as a primary goal. More like a parasite that could kill the host if unchecked.

The second are almost always after money too, BUT they state, and most people (including most of its own ranks) think is because of some stupid ideology or another. These organizations stated goals are mostly distrup or destroy goverments, cultures, religions or any target group they excuse themselves into killing....

So, regular criminals go after making money, terrorists go after specific groups, (in paper only, they are after money too). Of course this is too generic and criminal groups can be qualified as terrorist organization depending on their acts. Or things like the stupid scientologist can be considered terrorist groups just by their attempts to infiltrate the goverment of the US (and being criminally idiotic for believing such stupid things).

Or to put it bluntly on the US context, gangs go after you, terrorist go after the goverment.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 05:02:05 pm by LordBaal »
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47511 on: February 01, 2022, 05:57:36 pm »

Yeah, I think it's a no brainer that the Republican party is currently, and sliding deeper still, into fascism. Moreover, it's obvious that that the Democratic Party is honestly so spineless and toothless that considering them anything less than Republican Enablers is being generous. My own pet theory however is that the trend towards Fascism is actively fueled not by Republicans, but by big business and the 1%. You basically can't run as a politician without donations, and the biggest donors are the very wealthy. The Wealthy Elite already have their mitts in our legislature, with generous contributions fueling the equally generous legislation from the government.
When talking about facism, it is important to remember what political ideals the German National Socialist party started with, because they gained much or all of their initial political power within Germany using legitimate democratic and constitutional activity. Their supporters included many members of the educated populace, who were suffering economically.

This is the National Socialist's 25 point program. It was socialism and oriented against "big business and the 1%". The program's 25 points are an easy read and worth reading, because they will appeal to most people who read them.

And, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, just adding perspective to the idea. I was chewing on the first 45 minutes of this audiobook (a 2010 book) and considering the ideas it presents, then read your post and "by big business and the 1%".

=========================

Why is it that IS and Al Qaeda are called 'terrorist organistation', but MS-13 is called a 'criminal organisation'?
Is that because IS and Al Qaeda are muslims and MS-13 are christians?
There are restrictions about who you can send the military after and what land they can operate on, so "terrorist organization" and "criminal organization" are being used as qualifying labels with special meanings within some department of the government. Add label to justify the use of force.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47512 on: February 01, 2022, 06:35:30 pm »

By the Unspoken Names of Those Who Must Not Be Known what the Unholy Fucks is going on in here?

We've got mooks in Florida protesting... something in full nazi regalia throwing out fasisct fuckboy salutes. We had that whole khaki embarrassment in C-ville with their mayonazi chants about jews and blood and other such fascist callbacks. The orange moron literally managed to fuck up damn near every way he and his team of shitbags were able to when trying to overturn the election and then basically overthrow the US government, so we were spared a situation where he might have succeeded in getting himself installed as prez4lyfe BECAUSE HE IS TOO FUCKING INCOMPETENT despite literally the entire q cucks clowncar that is left of the republican party CHEERING HIM ON.

The supreme fucking court with HOW MANY seats filled by presidents who lost the popular vote was WILLING to go along with his bullshit but basically told him he fucked up and had to go back and properly dot his fucking i's and cross his fucking t's.

Ten reps and SEVEN of the fucking senators only said "ok this is too far" after he SENT A MOB OF MAYO MILITIABITCHES AFTER THEM!?!?

These morons worship the turds the orange bitchbaby drops in their mouths, gleefully aided and abetted him, literally had no platform for the last election beyond "whatever that stupid orange cunt wants" and there is doubt about them being authoritarian follower types?

They cheered as a million fucking americans--including many of them--died because hey, if you're too weak to survive, fuck you... and I took cold comfort knowing that stupid shitbrain orange cunt is too fucking incompetent to capitalize on something which any aspiring dictator dreams of: a goddamn global pandemic.

He is now getting nervous over various investigations getting too close to him so he CALLED ON HIS BITCHBOY FOLLOWERS TO INCITE VIOLENCE IN THE CITIES WHERE SAID INVESTIGATIONS ARE UNDER WAY... and there is doubt that this is a fascist movement?

Come on, it sucked but I understood somewhat when people were leery of taking folks like myself and others seriously when we were saying "hey uh... kinda worried about these fucking nazis" before the orange shitbag was elected.

I was more disappointed when people were skeptical as a tiki torch carrying parade of khaki disappointments chanting nazi slogans got called nazis.

Now? Wake the fuck up folks, you don't worry about diluting the terms fascism or nazi when LITERALLY TALKING ABOUT FUCKERS IN SWASTIKAS THROWING HITLER SALUTES ok?
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47513 on: February 01, 2022, 08:12:04 pm »


The supreme fucking court with HOW MANY seats filled by presidents who lost the popular vote was WILLING to go along with his bullshit but basically told him he fucked up and had to go back and properly dot his fucking i's and cross his fucking t's.


No, they were not. Every "overturn the election" case that has made it to SCOTUS has been dismissed with a unanimous "There is no legal basis for this whatsoever, go away" result.


Also, some recent polling shows Biden as being slightly more popular than Trump. In Florida, one of Trump's strongest states.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47514 on: February 02, 2022, 12:02:26 am »

Odd how these canadian truckers will tantrum over needles, but not any actual workers rights...
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Sirus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47515 on: February 02, 2022, 01:15:05 am »

Truck drivers don't really give a damn about that sort of thing, by and large. Most of the ones I've met have been strongly anti-union, anti-labor law, anti-legislation unless it provides immediate (and directly financial) benefit to them. They want less government oversight, not more.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47516 on: February 02, 2022, 04:08:21 am »

10-4 Rubber Duck!

(I have nothing sensible to add, even from a UK perspective, but I could definitely watch that film again and they certainly seemed to not like the 'system' regulating them. Well, except for the HAZMAT signage.)
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47517 on: February 02, 2022, 11:56:30 am »

Over here you don't. Political parties are all funded equally by the treasury for their activities, some get some extra money from party membership fees, but you do not need money perse to get into parliament or government. Ofcourse, the economical right wing parties mostly have rich fucks as their politicians, but that is because they are the rich fuck parties that try to push rich fuck rights.

Note that we do not have silly things like rallies, or personal voting campaigns that costs millions. That's illegal over here. It is illegal also to spend personal money on political campaigning, and illegal to recieve large donations, either private or from business.

Recently, a new law was passed that enforces a 2 year cooldown period for ex-ministers. They are not allowed to take any job in a field that touches even in the slightest with the field of governance they had as a minister.
Huh. That's interesting. I knew America was more oligarchic than most of the rest of the First World but not to that extent. TIL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

I think democracy heavily flavored with that would be a closer fit than classical oligarchy, but that link also describes civil oligarchy which is a new idea to me
(summary)
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/oligarchy/civil-oligarchies/86DDCA90915EAF82AB028F8FAA0949E6
It does seem to be reflective as well in many ways, though I haven't read more than the summary from the link of that book's chapter on civil oligarchy.
Spoiler: Summary (click to show/hide)
Party Political Broadcasts are by a fixed allocation of free slots on the various national broadcasters' channels, so minor-but-significant parties neither get priced out of the market nor so easily wipe the floor with everyone else by having a Sugar Daddy funder dominate the field.

Yeah, same here. Starting two or three months before election day, every political party that reached the treshold to be on the voting lists (you need 30000 signatures in support to start a political party here) will all get their 5 minutes 'broadcasting time for political parties' on our public television network a few times a week, regardless of how big or how wealthy the party is. And within equal-for-all predefined budgetary limits, paid for by the treasury.

I've thought that a similar system would be of great benefit to the US political system after learning about it here a long time ago. I do think that current Supreme Court precedent would not allow that to stand as of now, but I also have done 0 research past assuming the court's Citizen's United decision or related precedent would prohibit as limiting the "free speech" which wealth enables with that ruling. I'm not sure if the public funding ad slots would run afoul (probably somewhere somehow) but within the past 10 years I recall several arguments to remove pay from politicians by conservative movements on the logic that most are stereotypically wealthy and the taxpayer shouldn't pay their salary. This is an easy narrative to push, when the counterpoint is to say it's so that poorer individuals may hold high elected office, because that is uncommon. The same argument could be used against public funding of campaigns, especially if financial donations to campaigns remain poorly regulated ("they don't need it")

Another wrench in the gears is that many influential and important institutions profit a great deal from the status quo. Facebook too.
https://www.emarketer.com/content/facebook-dominates-2019-2020-political-ad-spending
(following link has a wall popup of the type that became common after the eurocookie law was passed, apologies, also ads aplenty)
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/election-boom-heres-how-much-ad-money-cnn-fox-news-and-msnbc-are-expected-to-make-in-2020/

Moreover I've only spotted a nondominant part of one of the parties ever seem particularly active in espousing significant campaign finance reform. I think in order for the idea to even have a chance politically in the public, reforms for publically funded elections would have to be a partywide plank at a time when the opposing party is something like a threat to democratic norms or something. Moreover it would take far more research than the 0 I've done to determine how to frame such reforms in a manner held constitutional by the highest court for it to go beyond a political plank to a legal chance of becoming and remaining law. I would also suggest as a specific example that the current makeup of the Democratic senate could not pass Build Back Better after a great deal of cajoling and broken promises to the liberal wing to pass the Infrastructure Bill alone. Due to the very narrow margins in combination with the above contributing factors, as much as I would very much like to see such a party plank, it is completely unrealistic at this time.

I saw some lamenting on the lack of viable third parties. Here is the best I can suggest.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/01/power-move-for-democrats-in-2022-00004214
It's a crazy dream of mine that disaffected liberals and conservatives like these could one day run on a plank of campaign finance reform as a single issue party that intends to disband after the deed is accomplished. This would be a way for both factions to gain more influence in a publically funded campaign finance system than they currently have due to all the "free speech" arrayed against them.

Realistically it seems unlikely and with little basis in reality due to my lack of experience with such things. Unless such an event occurs, I think that if my area is still unshakably Republican for a regional candidacy I will very seriously consider supporting the anti-Trump Republicans or freshly Independent with the best shot at winning in the primary election, when party candidate for the position are voted for (assuming I am not thrown off by other issues I can't support) and if the anti-Trump candidate proceeds to the general election for local and regional positions that aren't in realistic reach for the Democrat or <other choice here> to again consider a vote further if the inevitable post-primary flip flop isn't too severe for my tastes. It would be fun to see such a candidate overperform in the general compared to Trumpist candidates, though that is getting optimistically far, far ahead of circumstances. I don't expect them to be radically different from the Republicans I had grown familiar with, but if that party is to be elected by a large margin anyways in my area I'd rather have voted for an individual that has shown the character to do the difficult thing to lose some or many of their allies and friends for their principles, and who I consider right in this important matter.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 01:21:23 pm by Duuvian »
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Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47518 on: February 02, 2022, 01:45:59 pm »

Moreover I've only spotted a nondominant part of one of the parties ever seem particularly active in espousing significant campaign finance reform. I think in order for the idea to even have a chance politically in the public, reforms for publically funded elections would have to be a partywide plank at a time when the opposing party is something like a threat to democratic norms or something. Moreover it would take far more research than the 0 I've done to determine how to frame such reforms in a manner held constitutional by the highest court for it to go beyond a political plank to a legal chance of becoming and remaining law. I would also suggest as a specific example that the current makeup of the Democratic senate could not pass Build Back Better after a great deal of cajoling and broken promises to the liberal wing to pass the Infrastructure Bill alone. Due to the very narrow margins in combination with the above contributing factors, as much as I would very much like to see such a party plank, it is completely unrealistic at this time.

Problem is, in order to change the rules of the game, you must be able to win the game under the current rules.

If you can win the game under the current rules, why change the rules of the game?  Especially when you're encouraged to keep winning the game in the future.
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47519 on: February 02, 2022, 02:36:09 pm »

The article is from 2016 but I reckon if I could find newer statistics it would paint a similar picture of public opinion today. I did cherrypick this graph; the one showing campaign finance as Most Important Issue or similar sounding header does show that different issues garner more importance rating in comparison to campaign finance.
https://mountsaintvincent.edu/money-politics-americans-views-campaign-finance-reform/


Problem is, in order to change the rules of the game, you must be able to win the game under the current rules.

If you can win the game under the current rules, why change the rules of the game?  Especially when you're encouraged to keep winning the game in the future.
EDIT: took out short emotive grandstanding sentences

https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/bernie-sanders/summary?cid=N00000528&cycle=2022
If you combine that graph with a small donation driven political campaign, it's still playing within the rules afaik. To be honest you make a fine point due to the difficulties of such a self imposed limitation. I don't know what would occur when the donation model campaign is tried on a larger scale. I assume most campaigns are not so costly to run as the presidential, but I don't know how far the donations would have to spread over x number of candidates. I'm not married to the idea of the theoretical single issue party for election finance reforms only taking small donations, but I think if it is capable of function it would be more powerful of a message.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-issue_politics
The viability of such a party in today's US is one of the questions I have. This wiki article says it's difficult in systems such as the US with first past the pole and two party dominance, but a bit more effective in parliamentary systems and local issue elections. It may be that the circumstances are better for such a party in the US today than at previous attempts at it if it has broad public support on the issue and factions in both parties, however I have no links to provide which support that. It's probably too specific to search for someone having done the work for me and would require cobbling together a lot of articles and books to try to reach a conclusion; and single issue parties in the US too rare to find good search results. My source for learning that single issue parties had been done in the US before the civil war was a pdf scan of an old middle school textbook someone put on the internet and I found with a search a few minutes ago. I was going to read that chapter, but the pdf links were broken and so I only know offhand there were anti-slavery single issue parties before the civil war from the only paragraph visible in the search result. I assume those may not have succeeded.

EDIT: I was wrong in my previous post, there was an effort for campaign finance reform law in 2002 by John Mccain and a democrat I can't recall offhand. This is the law that Citizen's United struck down. I read this in an article that otherwise isn't a useful link.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 03:27:49 pm by Duuvian »
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FINISHED original composition:
https://app.box.com/s/jq526ppvri67astrc23bwvgrkxaicedj

Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit
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