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[delphonso]

Glad it's clear, Max. It is meant to be shocking, though I admit, the nuance isn't immediately apparent.

I think you might have misjudged the tone of Shonus'  post somewhat.

That was not unintentional.

[martinuzz]

The Supreme Court ruled today that healthcare workers in Maine cannot refuse mandatory vaccination on religious grounds.
This makes it unlikely as well that the 10 states whose republican governors want to prevent mandatory vaccination for government employees will win their case.

All in all, some good news.

The SC must have thought 'geez, if even the Pope calls upon his flock to get their asses vaccinated, who are we to rule otherwise'

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It's just a precedent thing, really. The court also ruled there was a religious right to be a plaguerat last year, so it's really just because vaccination was invented before 1950.

[McTraveller]

I have never understood the "Christian" opposition to things like vaccines. I mean really, you're worried that in order to potentially save lots of people, you're afraid of a very small statistical chance of personal harm?

And you claim to follow someone who willingly suffered tortuous execution to save others, including "you"?  And this person also said "it's not what you put in your body that makes you unclean"?

I mean I'm no saint, but I'm starting to think we are too tolerant of this manner of using the Lord's name in vain.

[Telgin]

I wish I could tell you what the real logic is, but I'm pretty sure it all comes from the first Book of Fox News, Chapter 23, Verse 7.  That is to say that there's really no Christian reason to do it and it's mostly talking points from media these people consume and then repeat to each other.

Actually, there could theoretically be a theological point if you're one of the people who thinks that getting any modern medical help is a lack of faith and weakness.  There are a few people like that around here, who won't even take aspirin because they only need faith and prayer to overcome anything.  The thing I don't understand, however, are the ones who don't go to this extreme but still refuse the vaccine, yet go to the hospital and accept other treatments for it when they get it.  Had a few of those in the local church, including one who is likely to lose his job over it if he doesn't get the vaccine and who spent weeks incapacitated because he got the virus, yet still refuses it.  Also after one member of the church died from it.

There's some talk about it being the mark of the beast, or at least a trial for the government and Bill Gates to later enforce that on the masses when he unleashes his next virus.  The people in church always hedge their words when they start that way though, because they know my family is vaccinated.

[hector13]

I was under the impression there was something like a chickenpox vaccine (is there even a chickenpox vaccine?) that was derived from an aborted foetus or some other such nonsense that got religious folks in such a tizzy that now any type of vaccine is viewed as coming from the same because you cannot use the science furthered from such methods.

I find myself kind of accepting that if someone doesn’t want to get the vaccine that they shouldn’t be forced to get it though. Does seem a bit over-reachy.

On the same token, though, there is only one person that I have any sort of positive regard for that I know for suresies is unvaccinated, so maybe that plays a part in that.

For real suresies if a healthcare worker or someone who regularly interacts with people who might be more susceptible to severe illness should probably be removed from that position if they are refusing a vaccine. Harsh on the one hand, losing bodily autonomy, but if you see everyday how a severe covid illness affects a person and their family, and you still refuse to get vaccinated (beyond a solid reason) then you probably shouldn’t be a healthcare worker in the first place.

[MrRoboto75]

tbh christians supported trump, quite possibly the opposite of most christian values.

[MaxTheFox]

I am a Christian (not even born so, I converted from atheism) and honestly I think antivaxxers are dumbasses.

[delphonso]

It is important to know and remind your friends that the covid vaccine isn't an exception. The anti-vax movement just happened to strike gold and has made a huge incursion into public thought. Anyone who is anti-covid-vax is pushing a larger anti-vax narrative, which will surely sprout from those seeds in disastrous ways. The reason behind the anti-vax movement is still a mystery to me.

Actually, there could theoretically be a theological point if you're one of the people who thinks that getting any modern medical help is a lack of faith and weakness.  There are a few people like that around here, who won't even take aspirin because they only need faith and prayer to overcome anything.

There are also the Jehovah's Witnesses (and others) who refuse transfusions as being against the natural order of things God's design. I can understand this as a religious stance, but it also means avoiding just about any surgery - and is honestly quite gray on vaccines.

I was under the impression there was something like a chickenpox vaccine (is there even a chickenpox vaccine?) that was derived from an aborted foetus or some other such nonsense that got religious folks in such a tizzy that now any type of vaccine is viewed as coming from the same because you cannot use the science furthered from such methods.

This would be a reasonable religious stance if it were followed to its fullest extent. Tylenol is also made using fetal cell lines - as well as host of prescriptions. Most drugs will have been tested with stem cells at some point in their development because it is the method for testing organ damage/side effects. To object to the covid vaccine for this reason means you should avoid just about any non-surgical medicine developed since the 80s.

For real suresies if a healthcare worker or someone who regularly interacts with people who might be more susceptible to severe illness should probably be removed from that position if they are refusing a vaccine.

This is already the precedent. You need to be vaccinated against certain diseases to do certain jobs. This is a new disease, so you need a new vaccine. Simple as that. Objecting to this vaccine means you should also object to all vaccines.

tbh christians supported trump, quite possibly the opposite of most christian values.

The Moral Right is really an interesting beast. It pushed Reagan (history's greatest monster) over Carter (objectively the most Christian president we've ever had). The anti-vax stuff was a part of the fundamentalist Christians for some time - particularly those most distrusting of any government. Vaccines (and hospitals at all) are methods of tracking your information. A totally reasonable fear, in my opinion, just taken to a terrible end.


[EDIT]: This came off as pretty preachy - what I meant to convey here was just a few points you could bring up in the face of family or friends who are approaching anti-vax ideals.

[KittyTac]

I don't like Reagan but to call him history's greatest monster is strange. America's maybe but it's hard to say with a straight face he's worse than Hitler and Mao.

[lemon10]

One of my mom's old friends came over yesterday, and aside from her politics is quite a nice person from what I can tell. But her politics are quite a big sticking point, cause she's a full on Q cultist.

And while I knew she was one before she came over (since its one of her main point of contention with my mom, and indeed the rest of physical reality), and while I knew that people like her exist its still quite shocking to sit across from someone and hear some of the stuff they believe.

Like the reason that we are having supply chain problems?
Its not because the global supply chain has been made as lean as physically possible in the name of capitalism to the extent that a shock like Coronavirus could cripple the whole system, no its because Biden wants to destroy America so the New World Order can take over.
Or the fact that plane contrails are actually chemtrails filled with nasty chemicals designed to get rid of the American population that believes in Freedom so that the evil immigrants can come in who don't believe in Freedom so the NWO can take over.

Or (based on past stuff my mom has told me she believes) how about the fact that Kennedy was never really dead and was going to come back to be Trump's running mate against Biden in the 2020 election.

There is a bunch of other seriously crazy shit that she just... believes. Honestly its sad.

I find myself kind of accepting that if someone doesn’t want to get the vaccine that they shouldn’t be forced to get it though. Does seem a bit over-reachy.

I strongly disagree. As soon as something starts involving the life and death of other people its reasonable for the government to come in and intervene.
Like it doesn't matter if your religion says taxes are evil or human sacrifice is okay, or DMV paperwork comes from the devil. You still got to pay your taxes, no you can't sacrifice me to Huitzilopochtli, and you still have to pass a test to make sure you aren't actually blind to drive.

I wish I could tell you what the real logic is, but I'm pretty sure it all comes from the first Book of Fox News, Chapter 23, Verse 7.  That is to say that there's really no Christian reason to do it and it's mostly talking points from media these people consume and then repeat to each other.

Yeah, mostly its just bullshit. They are against the covid vaccine, so they just try to hide behind religious freedom as an excuse as to why they don't have to take it in much the same way that a normal person would pretend to be a pacifist to try to dodge the draft.

Obviously there are people that are truly against all vaccines on religious grounds, but they are a very small percentage of anti-vaxxers.

[delphonso]

I don't like Reagan but to call him history's greatest monster is strange. America's maybe but it's hard to say with a straight face he's worse than Hitler and Mao.

Haha. That was a joke.

[scriver]

There is also the current of "holy body" thought that runs through all abrahamaic religions. It's probably the weakest in modern Christians (but I can see people bringing it out of the closet to justify their already-existing-for-other-reasons feelings on the matter) and I can't speak for Judaism, but it's still strong in Muslim culture as far as I know.

I was under the impression there was something like a chickenpox vaccine (is there even a chickenpox vaccine?) that was derived from an aborted foetus or some other such nonsense that got religious folks in such a tizzy that now any type of vaccine is viewed as coming from the same because you cannot use the science furthered from such methods.

I find myself kind of accepting that if someone doesn’t want to get the vaccine that they shouldn’t be forced to get it though. Does seem a bit over-reachy.

On the same token, though, there is only one person that I have any sort of positive regard for that I know for suresies is unvaccinated, so maybe that plays a part in that.

For real suresies if a healthcare worker or someone who regularly interacts with people who might be more susceptible to severe illness should probably be removed from that position if they are refusing a vaccine. Harsh on the one hand, losing bodily autonomy, but if you see everyday how a severe covid illness affects a person and their family, and you still refuse to get vaccinated (beyond a solid reason) then you probably shouldn’t be a healthcare worker in the first place.

I mostly agree. It's a very perilous line between the need to do what is best for most and people's right to decide over their own bodies, particularly with such new vaccines. I know the follow is a slippery slope argument, but there is a possibility of a lot of dangerous precedent being set right now, as I see it, especially since the public discourse (by which I mean social media) right now his so extremely callous and dismissive to people who fear getting vaccinated.

Here in Sweden the government is, or at least their rethoric is that they are, investigating whether they can give private companies the power to demand vaccinations from their employees. And to me, that's just straight dystopic -- if we give anyone that power then I want it in the hands of the government, and sure as hell not private interests.

And this goes especially for healthcare workers, despite the fact that the argument for the greater good also weighs the heaviest for them (for obvious reasons): most of them are already heavily abused by their employees and certainly don't have the kind of economic resources that make "well if they don't want it they can just quit" a reasonable argument. Many of then already live month to month and getting fired could mean facing complete impoverishment or even straight up deportation if they're immigrants (which, in Sweden at least, a substantial amount of the underclass health care workers are).

I think that if we do end up going the mandatory vaccination route for the greater good we should do so with a mindset of scepticism, not with thunderous applause and gleeful and contemptuous social media snarkery and casual dismissal towards the people who end up having their hands forced.

[martinuzz]

There are also the Jehovah's Witnesses (and others) who refuse transfusions as being against the natural order of things God's design.

Then why do they wear clothes? People are born naked.

[scriver]

Uhm Adam and eve were created with leaves on