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[scriver]

I do wish for a normal, yawn inducing life too.

Why do conspiracy theorists go against Jews all time? So far I saw it aplenty on the left conspiracy nuts but from Trump presidency onwards I see this too on the right conspiracy nuts. Poor guys can't catch a break.

It's an artifact of very literal centuries of anti-jewish hatred coming from Christianity, mostly. There's other stuff involved, but some asshole way in the past mangling christian scripture to blame jews for the death of jesus is where it started, and the effects of that propagating over several hundred years is what entrenched it. It's been a major part of rightwing horseshit for longer than there's been european colonies in the americas

You've got it the wrong way around. The "the Jews killed Jesus" sentiment only arises as a way to justify their already present anti-semitism. The anti-semitism itself comes into being as xenophobia arising from having people living among you who are not part of your society. I could agree that Christian thought-customs then carried anti-semitism, but as the widespread historical persecution of Jews in Muslim regions show, it is not a Christianity-based problem.

[Frumple]

I don't get it, really. All Christians I meet in real life consider the Jew people as the first chosen by God. The evangelist ones actually consider them sacred people filled with the grace of God... Back when Chavez cursed the land of Israel and all it's people on national tv there was a huge backslash for him on part of basically all Christendom from all denominations here.

I mean, that's one of the tricky parts -- there's wildly antisemetic christians, some just straight up holocaust denying pro-genocide fuckwits, that are nevertheless very strongly pro-israel. Dominionist types, that believe that israel must exist for the express purpose of being destroyed as part of the second coming, among others. Throwing shade at israel sometimes gets condemnation from goddamn neo-nazis who'd be cheering if you lynched a jew on main street.

Just like criticism of israel isn't necessarily a sign of general anti-jewish sentiment, support for it isn't a sign of general acceptance of jews, either, unfortunately. It's complicated shit nowadays.

I could agree that Christian thought-customs then carried anti-semitism, but as the widespread historical persecution of Jews in Muslim regions show, it is not a Christianity-based problem.

The extension of anti-semitic/xenophobic sentiment into something pervasive and functionally global is primarily a christianity based problem, bred within and spread by the churches -- however the initial spark came about, what LB's talking about came from the pulpit more than pretty much anything else, and by a fairly significant margin. There's lots of reasons and historical coincidences behind the why of it (eventual widespread secular influence of the church being a big part), but there's not much in the way of question as to its existence, least as far as I'm aware. It's breaking down a bit recently-ish, thank whatever's listening, but it's still a pretty damn serious problem among a lot of denominations.

You can talk about issues in muslim regions, but they were very often significantly more accepting of jews than christian regions were even with those issues. It's one of the reasons you see a fair amount of important jewish thinkers throughout history receiving patronage from muslim rulers when persecution of their people was common in both muslim and christian areas. Christian treatment of jews has been a historically nasty thing for a long, long time.

[Gentlefish]

Anti-Jew sentiment dates back mostly to Holy Roman Empire times, where the Jewish population was essentially forced into the roles of money lending, money changing, and proto-banking as any "God-fearing Christian" would never take on such a "dirty, unchristian" profession.

This, of course, led to the consequence of family-generational businesses of, you guessed it, Jewish bankers. So when monetary issues came about, it was easy to blame a group of people for their problems. This is where all the "greedy jew" fairytales and memes come from. Because they were the only bankers, because banking was seen as unchristian during a time of Christian supremacy of Europe.

Anti-Semitic sentiment was horrifyingly prevalent up through WWII; there's a reason nations didn't respond when Germany started the process and only took action when other nations were invaded. In fact, it's from that, that we have so much holocaust denial. People in power simply didn't care all that much until they realize just how monstrous the conditions were in the camps. And monstrous still feels like an understatement.

The KKK also heavily targeted Jewish communities, and Henry Ford (of Ford Motors fame) even blamed the first world war on the Jews, and published newspapers about a globalist Jew conspiracy... in 1919.

By the by. "Jews killed Jesus" was official stance of the Catholic church until the 1960's.

[martinuzz]

The Roman empire killed Jesus. It just happened to have judaism as a state religion at that particular time of their empire.

Considering the Papal State is the sole remnant of the Roman empire, it makes just as much sense (read: none) to say 'catholics killed Jesus'.

[Gentlefish]

The Roman empire killed Jesus. It just happened to have judaism as a state religion at that particular time of their empire.

Considering the Papal State is the sole remnant of the Roman empire, it makes just as much sense (read: none) to say 'catholics killed Jesus'.

Oh yeah no doubt it's a dumb stance. But their state religion was still Greco-Roman gods up until Constantine, I though. The most accurate statement is that the state killed Jesus.

[LordBaal]

The Roman empire killed Jesus. It just happened to have judaism as a state religion at that particular time of their empire.

Considering the Papal State is the sole remnant of the Roman empire, it makes just as much sense (read: none) to say 'catholics killed Jesus'.

Well, no, the Romans rolled allowed locals religious independency and even up to local leaders and all that fuzz to lower the chances of rebellions, They mostly were interested in these people providing taxes. The sentence was given by the local roman governor and carried out by roman soldiers that might or might not have been local boys. At the moment the Roman empire was not Christian and less Catholic. It would be another 200 years or so for that? It would be stretching it too far retroactively.

[martinuzz]

But their state religion was still Greco-Roman gods up until Constantine, I though.

Well yeah, I said 'a state religion', not 'the state religion'. I meant 'a religion accepted/approved by the state'

The most accurate statement is that the state killed Jesus.

Indeed.

At the moment the Roman empire was not Christian and less Catholic. It would be another 200 years or so for that? It would be stretching it too far retroactively.

Hence the read:none

[voliol]

And here I thought Jesus getting killed was a good thing to the Christians... Well, the thought is probably better left at that stage, just pointing out how strange it is. No sense in trying to make sense of nonsense.

[LordBaal]

Uh oh, I better get some sleep.

[McTraveller]

Hah yeah that's true, it does seem baffling that any "Christian" would blame anyone for the death of Christ.

This feels like it's veering off political topics though... as if I'm one to talk 

[Micro102]

Hey, that didn't take long.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/17/taliban-ban-girls-from-secondary-education-in-afghanistan

[None]

The decision on education has worrying echoes of the tactics the Taliban used in the 1990s, when they last ruled Afghanistan, to bar girls from school without issuing a formal prohibition.

“Education and literacy are so strongly valued in Islam that the Taliban could not ban girls schools on Islamic grounds, so they always said they would open them when security improved. It never did. They never opened the schools,” said Kate Clark, co-director of the Afghanistan Analysts Network, who worked in Afghanistan at the time.
‘Don’t avert your eyes’: Afghan teachers urge world to defend girls’ education
Read more

That decision did not spell the end of education for women, with some small classes in homes, and schools run in provinces by charities, she said. However, it did turn the basic childhood right to seek an education into a high-stakes gamble.

“There was always the fear that they could be closed in a moment. Or that teachers would be beaten or detained. This happened. Teaching girls was risky, a brave act of resistance, but not impossible.”

surely this time will be better, how bigoted of us to think otherwise

[Starver]

The "Women's Ministry" has been directly replaced with the new Taliban incarnation of the Ministry for Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, too, apparently.


edit: Ah, I see that's mentioned in the article linked to, now that I read it myself... Self[1]-ninjaing?


editedit: [1] Not the right term. Have made someone else ninja me. Whatever.

[None]

In a further sign that the recently announced Taliban government is tightening restrictions on women, the former ministry of women’s affairs building in Kabul has been handed over to the newly re-established ministry for the prevention of vice and promotion of virtue.

This was the group’s feared enforcer in the 1990s, charged with beating women who violated bars on everything from going out in public without a male guardian to an obsessively prescriptive dress code that even forbade high heels.

Just adding context to Starver here. Women were beat arbitrarily by an appendage of the Taliban that is now reclaiming a building designed for women's affairs with "the ministry for the prevention of vice and promotion of virtue" as if women just, y'know, being women were antithetical to the idea of virtue.

Fucking hell.

[scriver]

I could agree that Christian thought-customs then carried anti-semitism, but as the widespread historical persecution of Jews in Muslim regions show, it is not a Christianity-based problem.

The extension of anti-semitic/xenophobic sentiment into something pervasive and functionally global is primarily a christianity based problem, bred within and spread by the churches -- however the initial spark came about, what LB's talking about came from the pulpit more than pretty much anything else, and by a fairly significant margin. There's lots of reasons and historical coincidences behind the why of it (eventual widespread secular influence of the church being a big part), but there's not much in the way of question as to its existence, least as far as I'm aware. It's breaking down a bit recently-ish, thank whatever's listening, but it's still a pretty damn serious problem among a lot of denominations.

You can talk about issues in muslim regions, but they were very often significantly more accepting of jews than christian regions were even with those issues. It's one of the reasons you see a fair amount of important jewish thinkers throughout history receiving patronage from muslim rulers when persecution of their people was common in both muslim and christian areas. Christian treatment of jews has been a historically nasty thing for a long, long time.

The "acceptance" of Jews in Muslim regions is to large parts a myth, based mostly on the acceptance Andalusian Spain and extending this to the rest of the Muslim world by extension. They mostly come down to "there was a handful of highly influential Jews employed by the rulers" which, you know, kinda goes for Jews in Christian Europe as well. Even the Iberian "Jewish Golden Age" lasted for (if my memory serves) about 200-300 years, roughly around year 700-1000, before the Almohad dynasty started committing to what is likely some of the worst anti-semitic cleansings of the pre-modern world -- comparative to the ones during the Spanish Inquisition (which strangely enough was also preceded by a period of roughly 200-300 years of more tolerant-ish culture). This could be compared to the several more centuries of tolerance towards Judaism in the Byzantine Empire (which, it should be noted since it's relevant, also continued during the early era of the Ottoman Empire as far as I know).

And, once again, European anti-semitism is mainly not because of Christianity -- many Popes worked to make to make European kings and lords treat Jews better and praised those who were tolerant, such as the early reconquista kings in Spain. The "religious" reasons for the hate are post-hoc (Correct me if that does not mean what I think it does) justifications for an already felt hatred, not something that stems from religious dogma. Which is also why it perseveres without religion and even finds hold in followers of outright anti-religious ideologies such as socialism.