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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4472407 times)

Vector

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45300 on: May 28, 2021, 01:25:30 am »

I am within a hairsbreadth of giving up on this thread because I am finding the long posts heavy on the right and wrong ways to argue, and on accusing those with personal experience of being made irrational by it and therefore that their opinions should not be part of the debate, completely exhausting. Who died and made you a referee, huh? Or decided that the goal of the conversation was to convince you of one position or another?

This isn't an emotional appeal to attempt to shift your position. I understood from the last "Karen" conversation that that wasn't gonna fly. I'm mostly explaining to other people why I'm going to let you all keep talking "logically" about abortion restrictions while I go do something else.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45301 on: May 28, 2021, 02:07:33 am »

Vector--

This is an issue that affects an entire nation. 

It is important to keep that thought well grounded in your mind.


It is not that I think you are "Hysterical woman" or some other bombastic thing.  I think that there is a chance that your "personal experience", has you too close to the issue, and thus less able to make an impartial choice, based on evidence.

In other words, I suspect you have a conflict of interest.

I do not wish to drive you away. I value your perspective, however, I value your ability to ask very high quality questions, and challenge my positions using them more.  I would ask that you please not leave.   My positions are not concrete, and CAN change, I just require more than appeals to emotion to do so. 

I have reasons for that--  The people that actually and truly want to cut off supply of contraception, do so through pure appeal to emotion.  Specifically, the horror, disgust, and fear they have of a supernatural agent raining retribution down on the nation for "baby killing".

That emotional based policy, does extreme amounts of harm.  If it did not, we would not be having this conversation at all.
Emotionally charged argument got us into this mess. It wont get us out, it will mire us deeper.  That is why I am insisting so intensely on evidence based policy. 



« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 02:17:16 am by wierd »
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Lidku

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45302 on: May 28, 2021, 10:38:20 am »

So from what I've gleaned from this debate, its talking about after a certain amount of times done/bought, females should be met with somesort of "specialist" after buying certain amounts Plan-B or some such thing?

I honestly think that it doesn't make sense and seems like an unnecessary hassle. What are the exact merits of implementing something like that?
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45303 on: May 28, 2021, 11:24:16 am »

Not exactly.

The pharmacist already does consults for things you buy there, so that you know about side effects, and other hazards associated with a medication you have been prescribed.

You can get Plan B over the counter, but you have to ask for it at the pharmacy desk. This is similar to Sudafed. (PsedudoEphedrine, a nasal decongestant that is used to make meth by unscrupulous meth cooks)

The idea, is that like sudafed, the number you purchase is tracked. After you purchase 2 doses of it, it flags the purchase, and the pharmacist has to ask you an annoying question.

The annoying question is intended to help identify if the person buying the plan B is either forcing somebody to take it, or is using it because they are being forced into unprotected sex.  This is because the statistical odds are, that repeated use like this is highly correlated with that being the case. 

Pharmacists are ALREADY mandatory reporters, so if the respondent gives a response that would indicate such, they have to report it.

The intention is to identify when such things are happening, so that the person can receive state protection if they need it.


At no point should the pharmacist refuse the sale, nor should they cast aspersions on sexual activity, or choice. 


The big whoopity-whoo that has been raised, is that being asked this question is "unsettling", and that this will discourage women from buying the product. (This is something I need to see evidence for, as it needs quantification, not exposition.)

Another one, is that doing this would require that the purchaser have an ID, so that the purchase can be properly flagged at time of purchase, and linked with a purchaser identity.  In the US, there is an outstanding problem with minorities being denied state IDs.  This is done to discourage voting, and to further shut such demographics out of the political and healthcare aspects of society, usually by GOP aligned governors and senators, specifically to gentrify the electorate, and to avoid having to pay money into social programs. 

Statistically, the people who desperately need birth control the most, tend to be low income, and minority demographics.  The second argument, is that by tying to an ID, you restrict this access, due to the outstanding issue with IDs not being issued.  I countered that the correct thing to complain about, is that the IDs are not being issued-- Correcting that problem, will enable those demographics to have proper political representation, and proper access to healthcare.


The basic reply has basically, as far as I can tell, been "DO NOT LIKE!!!!" and "WILL NEVER HAPPEN!", respectively.

Again, if one asserts that such a necessary thing can never be achieved (IDs being properly issued, and not restricted for purely bullshit reasons), the issue will never be fixed, and it becomes self-fullfilling.


Further, I contested that the desired course of action-- "Always available, no questions asked, no data collected, completely anonymous" -- gives rise to situations where abusive partners purchase the product (since men can buy it just as easily as women, and in any amount they wish-- since it is not tracked), then beat their partners until they take it, while also subjecting them to brutal forced sex. Such things do in fact occur in the US, and are under reported, which is the reason why mandatory reporting is necessary.

Additionally, it enables situations where people like Mr Gaetz, a state senator that is currently embroiled in a salacious sex scandal, where is implicated in providing fake IDs and solicting under-age girls into sexual encounters-- to be able to "Have a cabinet full of Plan-B", and be quite cavalier about it, and its use.

Plan B is not intended to be used in such a fashion. ("Clean Up" after abusing young women, then paying them to hush up about it) Plan B is intended for people who either had a black-out experience at a party, and are NOT SURE if they were raped there or not-- to have some sense of safety-- For women that were recently raped, for women unsure if their normal birth control has been entirely effective, and for women who cannot take normal birth control, and either cannot safely have children, or do not desire to have children, but are still sexually active, and are hedging their bets against possibly shoddy birth control products (like a ruptured condom.)

Plan B is a perfectly OK item to purchase.  It *IS* however, an at-home chemical abortion, intended for very early pregnancy. (first 24 to 48 hours).  There are other products that can be used later, but are prescription only.  They should also have the consult if purchased regularly.


Again, I stated that the answer the woman gives to the annoying question can be whatever she damn well wants.  It can be "Fuck you, just give me the damn pills", and that should be acceptable.



The PROBLEM, is the implicit assumption that this is meant to be anything OTHER than that.  The GOP and its cronies like to pillage rhetoric and policy like this from the center, and transform it into a weaponized dogwhistle, or worse, into a trojan horse to bully, harass, and deny women access to essential products for things they consider "immoral" or "Sinful."

My answer to that, is "Fuck those assholes. No, that is not what I mean here, and No, that should never be tolerated. The purpose of the question is exactly what I stated, do not treat this like a dog whistle."


« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 11:37:21 am by wierd »
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NJW2000

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45304 on: May 28, 2021, 11:49:25 am »

So you think the US should ID-restrict Plan-B and ensure widespread ID holding among 14-y-os and minorities... and would be ok with it happening in that order? That last bit seems like the weird thing.


Also, prophecies are self-fulfilling if making them causes them to come true. Don't really see the causal link when it comes to ID availability... would need to see exposition there. Maybe even quantification.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45305 on: May 28, 2021, 11:55:13 am »

I never suggested that it should be in that order.  Where did you get that idea?

This is not one of those "Suspect dogwhistle-- TREAT LIKE DOG WHISTLE!" moments is it?

I really hate it when I get subjected to that-- it pisses me right off. Please do not do that.


The initial volley, was just me stating that I have a hot take about abortions; That when people get more than 2, they should get a consult, specifically to address the high incidence rate of under-reported IPV.


At no time did I ever suggest that it should happen *BEFORE* fixing the ID issue.


What I DID say, however, is that fixing the ID issue is preferable to holding white-knuckled onto the "No questions asked, Ever!" policy, because the latter is an improper treatment for the real condition-- Systemically disadvantaged people.

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45306 on: May 28, 2021, 11:59:00 am »

You have the evidence that mandatory reporting reduces reporting and the working knowledge that it'll reduce accessibility, even outside of the realm of GOP ratfuckery, and the word from people whom your suggestion would affect that it would not help in the ways you think it does. It's been explained that there is a social stigma against getting help- strictly outside the realm of religious damnation, there's a disproportionate quantity of slurs that target women for their sexual choices if you'd like an example, there is a shame ingrained in our society and that definitely affects how we talk about sexual health.

Why isn't that enough to disagree on? You've made the disagreement about the fiber of your character by assuming accusations of being a GOP shillbot, and the fiber of my character based on a prior spat, and the assumption that I spent days nursing a butthurt resentment about that. You've acknowledged it's a hot take, but seem upset that it's hotly contested. Really, this doesn't seem to be about the evidence-based merit of your suggestion at all, but the upset that you've been challenged- hence the tirade about melanomas and expedient solutions and all the shadows you've pre-emptively jumped at, the calls against accusations of political alignment, dog whistles, directions for how to argue according to you (and the irritation when people don't), that nobody's asking the questions that allow you to elaborate on your point.

This stopped being about abused women long ago.

You're proposing a regulation that you have neither organs nor behaviors to be affected by, requiring infrastructure and identification we don't have (and trying to make this an issue of accessible ID instead or an issue of people abusing proposed regulations to move the goalposts and chide opposition for being emotional), and no forethought for how much damage would be done just trying to get to that place with regulation in place except that "it'll hurt like surgical correction." Acknowledging that the steps of your idea will be abused or cause damage does not disavow the idea from the consequence that it will be abused or cause damage. Requiring a mandatory consultation and tracking on a registry WILL have a chilling effect, and unless your intention is to have that chilling effect to punish women who require those resources of their own volition, then maybe you should reconsider being dug in to the point of hostility.

If this really isn't about you or me at all, disregard all of the above and see below response.

What would hurt less would be expansions to planned parenthood, anonymous hotlines for abuse victims, additional women's shelters, more accessibility to birth controls/OBGYNs, hell, just about every PD has a massive backlog on rape kits, let's expand the capacity to process those, or don't, if you want to disagree about adding to police resources, that's okay too.

Shit, even cheaper than a national registry for plan b buyers would be to put a toll-free hotline phone number on every box or bottle of the stuff, that'd be more accessible if someone is buying it for someone else. If this doesn't fit the bill because Matt Gaetz, then it DOES become a matter of limiting access.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45307 on: May 28, 2021, 12:14:18 pm »


<snip>

If this really isn't about you or me at all, disregard all of the above and see below response.

What would hurt less would be expansions to planned parenthood, anonymous hotlines for abuse victims, additional women's shelters, more accessibility to birth controls/OBGYNs, hell, just about every PD has a massive backlog on rape kits, let's expand the capacity to process those, or don't, if you want to disagree about adding to police resources, that's okay too.

Shit, even cheaper than a national registry for plan b buyers would be to put a toll-free hotline phone number on every box or bottle of the stuff, that'd be more accessible if someone is buying it for someone else. If this doesn't fit the bill because Matt Gaetz, then it DOES become a matter of limiting access.

Since the prefacing portion is simply untrue-- this is indeed about the issue of reporting--, and not about my being "right", or any such thing-- I will attend to the latter.

Agreed-- Improvements to access, especially free access, should most definitely be pursued, and pursued vigorously.  I agree entirely that the most at-risk demographics are the ones least able to afford professional services through the normal insurance-industry-inflated clinical channels. 

Where I contest, is that voluntary reporting is sufficient.


The issue of derogatory statements about a woman's sexual choices is related to both toxic masculinity, and toxic femininity-- specifically, to the assumed presupposition that women must be "chaste, and virtuous!"

Women should not be under any such obligation, and any such notion should be discouraged. Vocally.

This is one of those "This is what I consider to be the ideal" things, not "I think we should just jump straight there!" things.

The ideal, is a situation where women are not conflated with some virtue signalling bullshit. (and thus, not subject to notions of "whoredom"), and where state issued IDs are not artificially restricted.
In that setting, the 2 purchase consult should occur, because rape would still be happening, because you cannot eliminate that behavior from society. (It being a combination of hormonal impetus, lack of self control, lack of ethical concern, and opportunity-- which will all still happen, even when the above preconditions are met.)  The stigma of having been raped, or worse still-- the psychological traumas associated with IPV that actively discourage a partner to report the abuse, and seek help on their own, will still be present.  It is this psychological trauma, that actively hinders women from self reporting and seeking help (and not just women either, rape is not a female-only issue. Men that get raped, likewise, often do not report, or seek help) that necessitates the need for the mandatory reporting.  --No amount of Toll Free Hotlines, is going to fix that problem. You have to have mandatory reporting, or rapes will go unaddressed.

I do not believe that there is a "Perfect solution" where you get "Perfect access", "No rapes", "Perfect self-reporting should one actually happen", et al.


« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 12:24:53 pm by wierd »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45308 on: May 28, 2021, 12:30:27 pm »

If the mandatory annoying question can be answered however including 'give me my damn pills,' what makes it any different from voluntary reporting? At that point, you're relying on a pharmacist's ability to detect deceit if the patient lies about abuse and then break client confidentiality on a hunch.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45309 on: May 28, 2021, 12:32:46 pm »

Incorrect-- The pharmacist is under no obligation to withold information from law enforcement.  Only from parties that have no legitimate need to know about a medical history.

The pharmacist, however, *IS* under legal obligation to report ANY SUSPICION.

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45310 on: May 28, 2021, 12:58:40 pm »

I can see the police reports blurbs in the tiny conservative towns now- "police reported to the Jude residence this Saturday after pharmacist reported woman, on the abortifactant registry, purchased abortifactants twice and suspected abuse." Now everyone in the town knows Jude is having sex outside of wedlock or in a way that is not trying to procreate AND she's murdering the 'baby.'

Your imperfect solution requires perfect behavior from every authority, if we're using the term 'perfect.'
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45311 on: May 28, 2021, 01:07:57 pm »

Agreed. Abuses will happen.

However, the consequences there, should be on the pharmacist--  If the woman says "No, I am just sexually active, and for reasons I do not have to tell you, I am not using condoms or other contraception. It is none of your business. Please put that in the record, and dont ask again." there is no suspicion of being raped.

The pharmacist has no obligation to report.

If the pharmacist still reports, there should be an inquiry as to why.  Further, the police investigating such a thing, should be penalized.  (This is because such reporting then becomes a HIPPA violation, as the police do not have a legitimate need to know details of a patient's medical history, and the pharmacist provided it anyway. The police doing the investigation anyway, after getting such information, are then willfully engaging in legal harassment of a civilian, unlawful use of medical records, etc.)



That does not help the woman who has been outed for having extramarital affairs--- Ideally, that should not be stigmatized, if both partners are OK with that--  However, her decision to do that without seeking the approval of her partner, places her partner at risk of getting STIs, or worse, and is gross negligence on her part.  It has nothing to do with being "A whore"-- exposing a partner, that assumes fidelity-- to STIs against their knowledge-- is unconscionably wrong.

The same is true of men being infidelitous to their wives.  (Or to gay men having extramarital affairs, et al. Any partnership that assumes fidelity, that then is violated, is unconscionable-- If the relationship is assumed open, there is no such unconsionability.  The arrangement between the partners must be considered.)


You are also conflating "Ideal" with "Perfect."  Please do not do that.


Perfect, implies that it meets **ALL** metrics. (EG, "Everyone is happy! No rapes happen, Nobody is called a whore, Birth control is never misused (because rapes dont happen)..." etc)

Ideal, merely implies that all POSSIBLE metrics are met. (Eg, "Catches the rapes that are unreported voluntarily, the most effectively possible, with the least onerous obligation, or total negative impact. Birth control is still available on demand without undue resistance." etc.)

Ideal inherently implies compromise (specifically, with what is possible). Perfect does not.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 01:27:46 pm by wierd »
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Lidku

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45312 on: May 28, 2021, 01:27:50 pm »

Quote from: wierd
That does not help the woman who has been outed for having extramarital affairs--- Ideally, that should not be stigmatized, if both partners are OK with that--  However, her decision to do that without seeking the approval of her partner, places her partner at risk of getting STIs, or worse, and is gross negligence on her part.

I don't see how that should be the business of anyone or why this is relevant; in regards to what is being discussed by the "two strikes, then mandatory question" topic here. What partners someone keeps should be private and nobody should be "outed" by some rando pharmacists. And if said theoretical lady is prudent enough to seek out Plan B resources, it should be obvious that in the same breadth, that they of course will be aware and take care of their sexual health in other areas; in most regular and ideal (heh, "ideal" is being a lot here, isn't it?) situations, that is.

Honestly that avenue just broaches the common trope of "big brother" and just seems unnecessary for what its worth. 
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45313 on: May 28, 2021, 01:33:52 pm »

Quote from: wierd
That does not help the woman who has been outed for having extramarital affairs--- Ideally, that should not be stigmatized, if both partners are OK with that--  However, her decision to do that without seeking the approval of her partner, places her partner at risk of getting STIs, or worse, and is gross negligence on her part.

I don't see how that should be the business of anyone or why this is relevant; in regards to what is being discussed by the "two strikes, then mandatory question" topic here. What partners someone keeps should be private and nobody should be "outed" by some rando pharmacists. And if said theoretical lady is prudent enough to seek out Plan B resources, it should be obvious that in the same breadth, that they of course will be aware and take care of their sexual health in other areas; in most regular and ideal (heh, "ideal" is being a lot here, isn't it?) situations, that is.

Honestly that avenue just broaches the common trope of "big brother" and just seems unnecessary for what its worth.

Oh, agreed!

The response was not in the scope you assign- It was intended to counter the implied "Outed as a whore".

Again, ideally, the notion of being "A whore" should be laughable. Sorta like the notion of being "A nerd" has become laughable.  Instead, the social stigma would be against infidelity-- that is something that is divorced from notions of masculinity or femininity-- and is tied exclusively to trust and exclusivity in a partnership that is founded on that. (and only on a partnership that is founded on that.)

The implication, is that the woman is not using contraception other than the Plan B, to avoid having wrappers, boxes, or receipts-- things her partner could discover, and thus, discover the infidelitous sexual encounters she has been seeking out. By doing so, she would be putting her partner at risk, to avoid detection.

That becomes a civil matter between the partners.  The pharmacist should not out the woman-- Again, his doing so is a HIPPA violation, and he will lose his license if he does.

That wont stop some pharmacists from doing it, however.  In such cases, we must accept that the world is not Perfect.  Instead, we must accept what is the best achievable Ideal, and punish appropriately when the exceptions occur.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 01:41:50 pm by wierd »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45314 on: May 28, 2021, 01:48:09 pm »

Fine, your ideal solution requires perfect behavior or you'll be 'appropriately punishing' magnitudes more people either judicially or culturally, pharmacists, spouses, partners, anyone who isn't ready to let other people know their sexual activity. Your ideal solution requires perfect modifications to social stigmas. Not ideal modifications to social stigmas, perfect, because if the whole town isn't totally okay with that kind of laundry getting aired, people WILL suffer.

'Outside of wedlock' does not mean 'extramarital,' please do not do that.

This is massive, MASSIVE overreach with the siren call of 'won't anyone think of the abused women?' much as people pushed against gay marriage with the line of "won't anyone think of the children?" There is nothing ideal about this.
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