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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4211898 times)

None

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45285 on: May 27, 2021, 09:16:23 am »

Man, it's hard enough to get allergy medication without being nationally tracked for fear of producing meth, you want that kind of overreach to apply to plan b as well and force a medical consultation on top of it? Who has the time or the funds for a mandatory consultation (excepting handwavey 'abolish insurance' so the process is free, since we're nowhere near that culturally)? This won't stop the kind of people that can accrue a cabinet full of the stuff from doing just that (the problem here is, actually and amazingly, Matt Gaetz raping children, not the presence of plan b, if we're using him as the example), it's just going to add another complicated layer to the shame surrounding birth control. In my small town experience, even just buying rubbers has them either locked away behind glass or there's a camera and screen playing your image at the shelf with a friendly 'RECORDING' reminder, and the closest thing to Planned Parenthood for at least half an hour around is one of those Jesus knockoff places that strong-arm the meek into watching an hour-long video about how abstinence is the only safe way.

Like, shit, these are federally unregulated products and I have the privilege of being a man in this circumstance. That's a LOT of stigma to grapple through if you have any kind of self-doubt, youth, or inexperience, and the stigma's only worse if you're a woman. I realize that comparing buying condoms to buying plan b isn't nearly equitable in terms of situational gravity, but it's the best I can do to relate.

Ideal privacy here would be buying through the mail, but then it's not private if you share a mailbox/household (the youth), don't have a mailbox (the homeless), or the abusive partner controls the mail. This really just hurts those not in power.

Do you just 'not' get to have the plan b if you don't take the consultation? Take legal action if someone else buys it for you? If you're buying it for your partner, do you have to go to a consultation as well, or just her, therefore allowing you to force someone else into a medical consultation for your purchase? Prevent men from buying the stuff?

For a touchy, should-be-private personal matter (healthcare, family planning, voting, etc), you don't protect it by putting up barriers to access, because once again, this just hurts the disadvantaged.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45286 on: May 27, 2021, 09:52:45 am »

For a touchy, should-be-private personal matter (healthcare, family planning, voting, etc), you don't protect it by putting up barriers to access, because once again, this just hurts the disadvantaged.

These are definitely personal matters, but healthcare, family planning, and voting are definitely not necessarily "private" - they have massive effects on society as a whole.  This is part of why politics exist in the first place - how do you balance the personal with the social.

I have come to realize there is a difference between "private" and "anonymous."  Voting and healthcare and family planning should be largely anonymous but there is no way they can be private.  Perhaps there is a better word for "private" here than "personal", I feel it's a quirk of English.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45287 on: May 27, 2021, 10:26:00 am »

Man, it's hard enough to get allergy medication without being nationally tracked for fear of producing meth, you want that kind of overreach to apply to plan b as well and force a medical consultation on top of it? Who has the time or the funds for a mandatory consultation (excepting handwavey 'abolish insurance' so the process is free, since we're nowhere near that culturally)? This won't stop the kind of people that can accrue a cabinet full of the stuff from doing just that (the problem here is, actually and amazingly, Matt Gaetz raping children, not the presence of plan b, if we're using him as the example), it's just going to add another complicated layer to the shame surrounding birth control. In my small town experience, even just buying rubbers has them either locked away behind glass or there's a camera and screen playing your image at the shelf with a friendly 'RECORDING' reminder, and the closest thing to Planned Parenthood for at least half an hour around is one of those Jesus knockoff places that strong-arm the meek into watching an hour-long video about how abstinence is the only safe way.

Like, shit, these are federally unregulated products and I have the privilege of being a man in this circumstance. That's a LOT of stigma to grapple through if you have any kind of self-doubt, youth, or inexperience, and the stigma's only worse if you're a woman. I realize that comparing buying condoms to buying plan b isn't nearly equitable in terms of situational gravity, but it's the best I can do to relate.

Ideal privacy here would be buying through the mail, but then it's not private if you share a mailbox/household (the youth), don't have a mailbox (the homeless), or the abusive partner controls the mail. This really just hurts those not in power.

Do you just 'not' get to have the plan b if you don't take the consultation? Take legal action if someone else buys it for you? If you're buying it for your partner, do you have to go to a consultation as well, or just her, therefore allowing you to force someone else into a medical consultation for your purchase? Prevent men from buying the stuff?

For a touchy, should-be-private personal matter (healthcare, family planning, voting, etc), you don't protect it by putting up barriers to access, because once again, this just hurts the disadvantaged.

Oh for fucks sake.

You know None-- This is NOT the first time I have gone rounds with somebody that keeps insisting on treating me like a GOP spokesbot.

If you are going to continue to conflate "WHAT I THINK YOU MEAN!!! WHAT YOU OBVIOUSLY MUST MEAN, BECAUSE I CANNOT COMPREHEND WHAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY WRITING@!!!@@@  WHAARRGARRBLLEE!!!", and "what was actually written", I am just going to add you to the ignore list, which is something I really abhore on a very foundational level.

That is how fucking fed up I am with the bullshit in that kind of thinking, because *EVERY GODDAMN TIME IT HAPPEN**, I end up having to go for 3 or more damn pages of the forum, with nothing but tit-for-tat with no traction whatsoever, because the other party doing the conflationary bullshit just cannot let go of their preconceptions, chooses willfully to ONLY see what they want to see, hear only what they want to hear, and then act butthurt for days as if I am the bad guy.  Either stop, ask a question for clarity-- like Vector does--- or stop talking to me altogether, if you are going to keep on jumping to bullshit conclusions like this.


ONE FINAL TIME.. AND ONLY ONE FINAL TIME FOR YOU.

I DO NOT INTEND FOR THIS TO BE USED BY GOP ASSHATS TO RESTRICT ACCESS.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? 

THE PURPOSE IS TO IDENTIFY WOMEN AT RISK OF BEING SYSTEMICALLY SEXUALLY ABUSED. THIS IS NOT HARD.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 10:31:20 am by wierd »
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Lidku

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45288 on: May 27, 2021, 10:39:50 am »

lol
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45289 on: May 27, 2021, 10:59:48 am »

Just curious. Does men getting their penis examined for issues ALSO count as specialist care that isn't covered by insurance?

Seems patently ridiculous to me that any organ in the body regardless of its purpose is considered specialist medical care to get looked at. It's not like having implants checked on or anything, it's literally attached to you.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45290 on: May 27, 2021, 11:09:12 am »

Just curious. Does men getting their penis examined for issues ALSO count as specialist care that isn't covered by insurance?

Seems patently ridiculous to me that any organ in the body regardless of its purpose is considered specialist medical care to get looked at. It's not like having implants checked on or anything, it's literally attached to you.
I believe urologists count as specialty care, but I think it's usually covered?
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45291 on: May 27, 2021, 11:20:22 am »

As the old saying goes, 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions.' You might not intend it to restrict access or regulate women's reproductive health, but it could be utilized destructively anyways. There's so many other ways to help, social outreach, education, help accessing health, advocacy, all without personal tracking, registry, or identification.

I guess I'd better let someone else make this argument.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45292 on: May 27, 2021, 11:36:04 am »

Depends.

Urology covers everything from kidney disease and bladder stones, to prostate cancer, to ED.



Things like kidney stones-- probably covered.

Getting treatment for ED, or radical treatments for enlarging prostate? Probably not. (the treatment where you get your prostate cut with a curette, probably covered-- but it also makes you unable to have erections afterward, in most circumstances, so men would rather suffer bladder retention and bladder and prostate cancer, than do that. There ARE treatments for enlarging prostate that do not do that (1)(2), but they are not always routinely covered by insurance.)

(Compare-- if the "default" treatment for anything female-related was hysterectomy, and that was covered-- but anything else, nope, not so much. That would be analogous to the urology problem.)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 11:43:18 am by wierd »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45293 on: May 27, 2021, 01:39:03 pm »

Just curious. Does men getting their penis examined for issues ALSO count as specialist care that isn't covered by insurance?

Seems patently ridiculous to me that any organ in the body regardless of its purpose is considered specialist medical care to get looked at. It's not like having implants checked on or anything, it's literally attached to you.

Depends on who looks at it. If itīs a GP, sure. If its a specialist, its specialist medical care by definition. You donīt pay for the specific consult or procedure, you pay for what it takes to make a specialist,
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 02:10:07 pm by ChairmanPoo »
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45294 on: May 27, 2021, 01:56:23 pm »

Fair, but why would seeing a specialist for an actual problem not qualify for insurance? Seeing a specialist plastic surgeon, sure I get that. Seeing a specialist Urologist because it burns every time you pee.....other than probably being an STD, seems like an actual medical problem to be covered. Do women's vaginas exist in some special realm where their problems aren't covered?
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Vector

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45295 on: May 27, 2021, 02:10:47 pm »

Yes, uteruses belong to a shadow realm, because childbirth is life-threatening and highly expensive.

Viagra is covered under Obamacare, many places want birth control pills not to be (the whole Hobby Lobby thing). Folks are still trying to get people to take taxes off of sanitary products. It's a mess.



Dude, the all-capsing is giving me a headache... I disagree with you for the same reasons that None disagrees with you, and unlike our previous argument, we're not talking about your body here. I know your intentions are in the right place but I don't agree with you in taking action that is going to have the side effect of restricting abortion access. Expanding access to IDs would require expanding access to voting and we know that's not gonna happen anytime soon.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 02:13:16 pm by Vector »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45296 on: May 27, 2021, 02:23:25 pm »

Fair, but why would seeing a specialist for an actual problem not qualify for insurance?
It probably should. Iīm not saying that the insurance system in the US isnīt crap. :P   Iīm saying that specialist care *is* specialist care.

Honestly, I get called all the time for all sorts of turdy consultations which I feel are kind of unnecessary. But itīs still specialist care, even if my main contribution is a polite note saying that routine general medical management  (which is something that Iīd arguably do worse than someone who is doing routine medical management every day) is fine.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45297 on: May 27, 2021, 07:52:49 pm »

Yes, uteruses belong to a shadow realm, because childbirth is life-threatening and highly expensive.

Viagra is covered under Obamacare, many places want birth control pills not to be (the whole Hobby Lobby thing). Folks are still trying to get people to take taxes off of sanitary products. It's a mess.



Dude, the all-capsing is giving me a headache... I disagree with you for the same reasons that None disagrees with you, and unlike our previous argument, we're not talking about your body here. I know your intentions are in the right place but I don't agree with you in taking action that is going to have the side effect of restricting abortion access. Expanding access to IDs would require expanding access to voting and we know that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

Viagra is a treatment for ED, but is not the only treatment for ED.  There are many pathologies that can cause ED, not all of which are related to blood oxygen levels.  Not all of those are covered by insurance, because they are considered "elective, unnecessary surgeries or procedures."  This is not a Man vs Woman issue-- both Gyn and Uro are "Human health" issues.


As for the issue of IDs, and reaching for stopgaps, and pretending they are sufficient-- No.

A good number of problems in the modern world come from reaching for the "most expedient" solution, rather than the provably correct solution.  See also, Kissinger's bullshit with the middle east, as the most expedient solution to his perceptions of decline in american hegemony-- and his "Global balance of power."  It has caused snowballing effects that have ruined hundreds of thousands of lives, and continues to ruin lives to this day.

The issue with voting is a systemic problem, that has snowballing effects.  Restriction of IDs is the kind of bullshit "expedient!" solution I am referring to, in and of itself. It was and is being done by a political minority, to hedge against the loss of their own political hegemony, and it destroys lives through its snowballing effects.  The reduction in availability of birth control you are fearful of, is a very justifiable fear in the face of the continuance of that snowball cascade, caused by the continuance of such policies.

Again, though-- that is not an issue that is intimately tied to birth control, it is an issue that barrels INTO birth control, caused by bullshit in the voting availability arena, artificially imposed through ID restrictions, and which is being purposefully done, and MUST be stopped.

The correct fix, is to fix the problem with the IDs, even though that is indeed the hardest area to get traction in, BECAUSE it is the focal point of this artificial application of political force, by the GOP and its supporters.

Trying to hedge around one's own perceived loss of ability (in this case, loss of access to birth control, as adjunct to this other group's activities with IDs), with "Most Expedient" solutions, only amplifies these kinds of snowballing cascades of ancillary problems, which then in turn, trigger yet MORE "Most Expedient" solutions, which then further snowball.

The correct action is to fix the actual problem, and not to chase after symptoms.


Our society has a problem with cancer, metaphorically.  Asserting "The cancer is too hard to treat!", and then focusing on applying skin cream, makeup, and taking a multi-drug cocktail to alleviate symptoms--- does not actually heal the patient.  It masks the symptoms, while adding new pathologies from the polypharmacy.


I would argue that as a woman, especially one that has endured sexual assault (and thus, the loss of body agency that is associated with that trauma), you are having a heightened reaction to this loss, that distorts the importance of it in the face of other problems-- That is to say, you are incorrectly assigning a higher priority to the perceived availability of birth control (The suggestion I made does not actually reduce the person's physical ability to get the product-- at most, it inconveniences them-- Rather than view it as "You have to take the survey to get it!", it is rather "If you ask for it, the Pharmacist has to ask-- you can tell him/her whatever you damnwell please, and they have to accept it, and no, they cannot withhold the product.") vs the lack of IDs, vis-a-vis the multitudinous impacts that has on society (since, as you rightly point out, proper tracking would indeed require identification of an individual in the society, and the best vehicle for that is the ID card system, since that is kinda what it is for.  The issue of "not a valid identity", associated with being denied access to that ID system (through denial of applications for ID cards) for artificial voting control, has myriad effects on people, not just their ability to obtain birth control. --And, for the record, I will come out right now and say that the people disadvantaged in this way statistically do in fact need these products and services more than other demographics, and should not be suffering like that-- 

When people cannot EAT-- cannot FIND WORK-- cannot be represented in government-- Are systemically abused by the criminal justice system as non-persons, or as non-citizens--- Those problems loom large, combined with the reduction in birth control availability.

Again, Focus that energy on fixing the ID system.  That is what needs to be fixed there. It needs to be fixed for multitudinous reasons, and fixing it, will do wonders for getting the people impacted access to quality healthcare.


I am very vocally opposed to "Most Expedient" solutions-- They almost always cause vastly more problems than they purport to resolve, and cause an even bigger mess. In my view, they are not, therefore, actually solutions. They are disguised problems, that people then violently fight to protect.

Groups like the GOP leverage this to get what they want, which is to stay in power.

Collectively, we (as citizens, as in all of us), need to focus on what the actual causal problems are, and demand actual substantive corrections to them.  As long as we reach for "Most Expedient!" stopgaps, and then violently defend those stopgaps, instead of demanding substantive change--- We will NEVER get substantive change.


Again, consider it like this:

Our country has Melanoma.

our options are:

Surgical correction (which is painful, and hard to do, but has the best outcome)
Skin bleach to try and conceal it.
Pain killers and steroid antiinflamatories
heavy coats of base foundation and makeup.

I argue that skin bleach, makeup, and pain killers are not effective treatments, despite being readily available, and easier to use.  You appear to be so fixated on having the skin bleach restricted, that you forget that the thing we actually have is Melanoma.


The metaphorically proposed questionaire about buying lots of skin bleach, is not there to prohibit its use. It is there to identify people with body identity issues, who use it incorrectly, and to prevent other kinds of problems,  (Namely, the kind of enabled sexual abuse the statistics scream about.) by identifying those people, and getting them help.

We need to treat the Melanoma.

When we tell ourselves "We will never be cured of the Melanoma!!", we only doom ourselves to that fate.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 08:02:51 pm by wierd »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45298 on: May 28, 2021, 12:09:42 am »

i'm going to politely disagree with all of this post and not elaborate so as not to catch abuse about implied offenses
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45299 on: May 28, 2021, 12:24:51 am »

I think you are misunderstanding.

I am perfectly down with very specific criticisms, as long as they are not "Disagree, therefor wrong!", or "Sounds like dogwhistle, ergo, MUST be dog whistle!"

Neither of those are correct or proper discussion.


For instance, a more correct form of detraction, would be something like-- pointing out that mandatory reporting has been shown through many studies to reduce the rate of voluntary reporting, and that this has chilling effects on getting women in abusive relationships the help they need, and then citing sources. That would be vastly more effective on me than emotional based rhetoric.  I am not swayed by emotional argument.


Doubling down on something I have not contested, even from the beginning-- which you would of course, have SEEN, if you had done what I had asked you to do this whole time, which is to argue about what is actually written, and not what you want to perceive it as-- To wit:


 This is not because I think you need to be harassed about your choice(+) for a 3rd abortion...

+ I am WELL aware that this looks like a dogwhistle, goddamn it.  I am WELL aware that fucking idiot GOP motherfuckers will use it as an opportunity to do nefarious shit also, However, ignoring the problem that festers from not doing the consult is fucking monstrous.


which has been consistently treated as if I was not already aware of, and in complete agreement to-- and that if you could just club me to death with that reality, I would change my mind-- ignoring the actual reason why I have the damn hot take.

Again-- YES-- those tools coopt and ruin sensible proposals, as they scramble to grab on to everything in the center, to turn into a weapon against the left.


Again, I am a rare-as-unicorn-shit centrist, not a dog-whistling GOP asshole.  My position is not to create a means by which abuse can be performed-- I acknowledge that the Right wants to abuse these kinds of ideas, abuse these kinds of ideas now, and has historically done so consistently for decades.

The problem is not the ideas that get abused.

The problem is the people abusing them, and the reasons they abuse them.

If you want to challenge my position, the correct place to do it is not "ARE YOU AWARE OF MY FEELINGS!?".    The way to do it is "Mandatory reporting has a statistically significant chilling effect, so how do you justify expanding it?"


Doubling down on how I have hurt your feels, is not going to work.  I derive my hot takes from evidence based reasoning whenever and where-ever possible.  Being passive aggressive about having been called out on prior offenses does not work either.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 12:31:31 am by wierd »
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