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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4418149 times)

Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45105 on: May 17, 2021, 05:00:48 pm »

This is backwards world since nazis hate jews, therefor hate israel and they dominate the republican party, but a bunch of democrats mad. I am wondering if because of trump, he somehow put in a bunch of people or did something to make anti-Semitism and anti-israel (both are separate since israel isn't fully jewish, but the literal nazis as I've said are definitely taking advantage of those who are against israel) a popular thing.

Before trump, never saw so much anti-israel hate except from nazis and republicans. Now its both sides and biden is here just ignoring the nazis lol.

This is just a bunch of nonsense Reductio ad Hitlerum.

The majority of both parties see the issue as a matter of geopolitics. We gave a part of Palestine to the Jews after the Holocaust, despite having no real authority to do so. This understandably pissed off the Palestinians, who have been in conflict with Israel ever since. It makes Israel a dependable ally to us in the middle east, however, since we're a major supporter of their right to exist as a nation.

Antisemitism exists in fringes of the Republicans and Democrats. For the Republicans, it's Neo-Nazis. For the Democrats, it's the Nation of Islam, (and possibly others.) If you didn't see this from Democrats before Trump, you weren't looking.

Cynically, the reason the government supports Israel is because they are a strategic asset in the middle east that can further our interests. This will almost always take precedence over any human rights abuses they commit. It's not like we don't drone strike the occasional civilian ourselves, after all.

The Israel/Palestine issue can also be used as a political weapon for both sides. If you support Israel, you support abuses against Palestinians and are anti-Muslim. If you don't support Israel, you're against Jews having a nation and are an anti-semite.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 05:10:28 pm by Bumber »
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The_Explorer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45106 on: May 17, 2021, 05:13:59 pm »



The Israel/Palestine issue can also be used as a political weapon for both sides. If you support Israel, you support abuses against Palestinians and are anti-Muslim. If you don't support Israel, you're against Jews having a nation and are an anti-semite.

I think this kinda really sums it up and hence the "status quo" instead of working for an actual solution. I'm sure there is a solution that the world can meet and everyone be happy about, but it never happens. What that is? Well I'm not a world leader...nor a politician...I just see it as "status quo" and this last part of the quote sums it all up as it creates a clear (and sad) divide. When I think both can come to an agreement that all can be happy with. Just, no one as far as I know has even tried...except...keep the same thing over and over.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45107 on: May 17, 2021, 05:18:54 pm »

I think this kinda really sums it up and hence the "status quo" instead of working for an actual solution. I'm sure there is a solution that the world can meet and everyone be happy about, but it never happens. What that is? Well I'm not a world leader...nor a politician...I just see it as "status quo" and this last part of the quote sums it all up as it creates a clear (and sad) divide. When I think both can come to an agreement that all can be happy with. Just, no one as far as I know has even tried...except...keep the same thing over and over.
It has been tried. The original formation of Israel from Mandatory Palestine, excluding the specific areas Israel later occupied, was the first such attempt. A solution that makes both sides happy is physically impossible and naive, because the people involved want fundamentally contradictory things.
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Vector

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45108 on: May 17, 2021, 05:31:29 pm »

In other news, sadly looks like abortion rights will become limited

Folks had better get ready to raise the minimum wage then, I guess,

And restrict rights to divorce,
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Telgin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45109 on: May 17, 2021, 06:51:30 pm »

Sounds like something that may stir up those murmurs again of increasing the size of the supreme court to pack it.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45110 on: May 17, 2021, 08:48:15 pm »

Sounds like something that may stir up those murmurs again of increasing the size of the supreme court to pack it.
"We don't like the results of the current rules, so we're going to change the rules so we can get the results we want."

Or put more simply "when we have enough power, we'll change the rules to make it the way we want." Essentially the removal of all checks and balances against the majority making the rules at the expense of the minority.

Question related the SCOTUS issue at hand: has anyone ever looked at any possibility of a system that supports women's rights (reproductive or otherwise) while at the same time avoiding abortion? I abhor systematic suppression of women, but I also abhor abortion.  You folks know me enough now to know that I'm not ashamed to say that I do not want to accept that allowance of abortion is necessary to have women's rights.  Can't we have both women's rights and limited abortion?
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Vector

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45111 on: May 17, 2021, 09:46:15 pm »

No.

One of the reasons why is that making abortion illegal means that miscarriages must be inspected with the assumption that they are evidence of "attempted murder." This is completely unacceptable. Some 1/4 of pregnancies end in miscarriages all by themselves.

Another thing to realize is that abortion is already restricted.

If you need another reason, please consider how you would feel if it became illegal to surgically operate on men for cancer (but legal to operate on women for whatever reason). It's true that you may well survive, who knows, but you clearly aren't the person being prioritized. It's your tumor. I don't actually believe that a fetus is the same as a tumor, but the point is that this argument is fundamentally about the right to deny people life-saving care.

If you need another reason, we live in a secular society and Judaism requires legal access to abortion.


Personally, I will not date someone who could make me pregnant unless I have safe, legal access to abortion. Period. So y'all have to decide if you want no abortion with a side of extra homo, or abortion and the possibility of pretty grandchildren.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 09:55:57 pm by Vector »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45112 on: May 17, 2021, 09:53:52 pm »

Can we respect bodily autonomy and not respect bodily autonomy at the same time? Basically no? Pretty much no. The no, there, is pretty straightforward. If you want to limit abortion, limit the conditions that incentivize abortion and stay the hell away from telling someone what they can or can't do with their own body. Shit's honestly fairly simple on that front. And ninja'd, but eh.

There's pretty much nothing else we treat like it, even when there's similar or functionally identical concerns. So either we need to treat abortion like we do everything else (i.e. no coercion involved), or it's mandatory blood giving and organ donation and being drafted to aid with caregiving the invalid (or violent, or etc. -- remember we're talking about forcing someone to do something that's life threatening and can cause permanent health damage, so the scope ranges pretty wide!) and so on. Coercion for everyone!

"We don't like the results of the current rules, so we're going to change the rules so we can get the results we want."

Or put more simply "when we have enough power, we'll change the rules to make it the way we want." Essentially the removal of all checks and balances against the majority making the rules at the expense of the minority.
Though yeah, consider that's basically already happened and abuse of other sorts of horseshit has already packed the courts. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if that's what it takes to get a SCOTUS galley that's not majority crank what's overtly hostile to the majority of the country's citizens and slates of minorities on the side, well. You play the hand you're dealt, if you're able, y'know?

Court could honestly stand to be expanded regardless, just like the House and the general Judiciary, among other things. There's a fair amount of shit in the US federal system that hasn't really expanded as much as it should have as our population grew.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45113 on: May 17, 2021, 10:04:27 pm »

What stops the next majority from expanding the courts again, to get their packed court?
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45114 on: May 18, 2021, 01:11:41 am »

Though yeah, consider that's basically already happened and abuse of other sorts of horseshit has already packed the courts. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if that's what it takes to get a SCOTUS galley that's not majority crank what's overtly hostile to the majority of the country's citizens and slates of minorities on the side, well. You play the hand you're dealt, if you're able, y'know?
This sort of argument, which I have heard a few times before, is complete bullshit. It is not "packing the courts" for the duly elected Executive and Legislature to appoint judges as they deem appropriate, no matter whether you like their choices or not. It is also not even court-packing for the duly elected Legislature to reject appointees from the Executive which they don't like, for any reason, and wait for a future Executive to appoint a judge they like better. All of this is within the bounds of their Constitutional powers. The Court doesn't become invalid because the half of the country you hate outvoted you once.
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45115 on: May 18, 2021, 04:57:33 am »

What stops the next majority from expanding the courts again, to get their packed court?
Eventually, everyone will be a SCOTUS justice.

Until they start nominating corporations, that is.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 05:08:53 am by da_nang »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45116 on: May 18, 2021, 06:28:10 am »

Though yeah, consider that's basically already happened and abuse of other sorts of horseshit has already packed the courts. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if that's what it takes to get a SCOTUS galley that's not majority crank what's overtly hostile to the majority of the country's citizens and slates of minorities on the side, well. You play the hand you're dealt, if you're able, y'know?
This sort of argument, which I have heard a few times before, is complete bullshit. It is not "packing the courts" for the duly elected Executive and Legislature to appoint judges as they deem appropriate, no matter whether you like their choices or not.
If it's not packing the court to wildly abuse the standard functioning of SCOTUS appointments to get who you want in there, then it's not packing the court to expand the thing, either. The number of judges is about as much calvinball as how quickly Congress considers a judge or how fast they shove the appointment of one through, and the GOP decided to play jackass with that, so hey. Fuck with one, it's okay to fuck with the other. That's fairness.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45117 on: May 18, 2021, 06:57:42 am »

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45118 on: May 18, 2021, 09:01:30 am »

What stops the next majority from expanding the courts again, to get their packed court?
Eventually, everyone will be a SCOTUS justice.

Until they start nominating corporations, that is.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #45119 on: May 18, 2021, 10:02:34 am »

I'd be amused to explore the concept of completely random appointment to SCOTUS.  If you are selected, you get free X years of eduction so you don't have to worry about qualification nonsense, and then your term starts at the end of that X years.

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