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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4228633 times)

Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44070 on: February 22, 2021, 05:52:40 pm »

... And so even many criminals organize themselves in similar ways as well, and end up containing some of their own impact in the process.
It helps if guided by the Havelock Vetinari principle. Crime is always going to happen. And if you've got to have crime you might as well have organised crime! It removes a lot of life's uncertainties.

(And then, of course, he knows who the organisers are. And where they live...)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 05:54:21 pm by Starver »
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Vector

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44071 on: February 22, 2021, 06:29:53 pm »


Yeah, to be clear, Wiki was a fast link to something that I've mostly heard about through 1. education conferences and 2. podcasts on prisons or abolition (e.g. Beyond Prisons and Ear Hustle). Ear Hustle recorded a restorative justice session between a woman who had been sexually trafficked as a child (adolescent) and then went to prison for killing her trafficker, and a man serving life in prison for sex trafficking, including adolescents. Hearing that particular conversation helped me understand a little more what everything was about.

I mentioned the link to indigenous cultures to be clear that this is a practice which has been used before, as opposed to being some kind of pie-in-the-sky New Age thing that has no proof of concept.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44072 on: February 22, 2021, 07:05:55 pm »

Spoiler: -Snip- (click to show/hide)
Racial ghetto's probably too harsh, the demographics of London means you pick any borough outside of the CoL proper and it's majority non-English non-white European, but it is poor + high crime. Most of the people in Peckham have salaries of £16k but the living wage for London is calculated at £22k, and even that's being generous. Peckham's infamous in the UK for having loadsa stabbings, mostly kids stabbing other kids (<16 years old perps and victims).

Funnily enough, Margaret Thatcher argued the same thing about home ownership and stopping the UK from having a full communist revolution. She sold loadsa state housing to people for around £10-20k, and those same flats are worth £650,000 to a few million in London today thanks to speculation magic by money warlocks. Unfortunately that trick can't be played twice because the property prices are such that three generations of a normal London family would not be able to own a house if they did not buy it before the 80s ended.

In addition to the carrot drying up, the stick's also fucked. All the experience police officers got given redundancy packages to "save costs." As a result all the local police stations in the area got shuttered. After the inevitable crime wave that followed (bearing in mind, police officers were recruited from the local population as members of the community in uniform, not as a police class separate from the population), the gov panicked and tried to mass recruit new peoples. Problem is, no one wanted to become a police officer because police had gone from being a community relations job to some life or death shit. So they started lowering standards, increasing recruitment without offering training or experienced mentors, and recruiting from anyone. So no more local police officers, no more experienced police officers, and police officers outright refused to even investigate or attend to violent crimes if someone was not in the process of being murdered or the property damaged/stolen did not exceed £5k. In one pretty grim and hilarious anecdote I know, one lady I know was shocked to find the police would not come to her house as her door was being kicked down by 5 men, because she said the men did not have a crowbar on the 999 phonecall.

Regarding the whole state sponsored terrorism thing, what happened was they ran a law through parliament giving criminal informants working for police & MI5 to break the law without getting convicted. This'll probably be more relevant for the much better funded MI5 whose job description inevitably revolves around having their fingers up the bums of many actual terrorist groups. Their argument was if they didn't allow legal crime breaking for criminal informants, then crime groups would just use illegal activity as a filter for determining who was an informant or not. IDK what's the right way to conduct this kind of security work and my instincts say having unaccountable terrorists being blackmailed by security bureaus is a surefire way to create state-controlled disposable assassins in the worst-case scenario so hopefully this law gets shitcanned before it gets passed

Got to say, I've never had any positive experiences with police in my entire life. Yet I appreciated that they were unarmed, and at some point they used to actually leave good impressions on people. I wonder if the ideal of the community police officer with power to arrest & nogun wouldn't be workable with the right resources.

Spoiler: -snip- (click to show/hide)
Maybe. This is where I would have to draw the line; there are some groups like ISIS or Aum Shirynko where people are just unreasonable assholes whose political objectives are exclusive to having a good time. With these groups, there exists no political solution besides capitulation or opposition. I also am not as confident that we can treat or reform everyone; even assuming that the Freudian assumption is correct, which I do not, some people just make the choice to do wrong by their fellow man

*EDIT
Speaking of spooks and get spooked, the UK are reviewing the death of the MI6 agent who """died by suiciding himself in a bag"""

Quote
At that time, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt said he was satisfied it was "theoretically possible" Mr Williams could have padlocked the bag from the inside, although "many questions remain unanswered" as to the circumstances of his death.
But he said there was no evidence the MI6 officer had intended to take his own life or his death was connected to his work.
Lmao he was murdered for sure
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 07:10:50 pm by Loud Whispers »
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44073 on: February 22, 2021, 09:10:38 pm »

Does London/the UK have the ill-conceived rule like we have in the US where if you have gains of up to something dumb like $500k on sale of a primary residence you aren't taxed on the gain?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44074 on: February 23, 2021, 03:48:33 am »

Does London/the UK have the ill-conceived rule like we have in the US where if you have gains of up to something dumb like $500k on sale of a primary residence you aren't taxed on the gain?
Yeah, primary residence homes you've exclusively lived in, that you sell with no intention of making a profit, give you complete tax relief. In theory a large family could game this by having each person in the family act as a resident for each property in their collective portfolio, using government assistance schemes for first time buyers and the strongest credit rating of the family to maximise profit. I don't know the numbers of how many people could and would do such a sneaky breeky thing, but the financial incentive is such that I'm sure it happens

Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44075 on: February 24, 2021, 01:03:34 pm »

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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44076 on: February 24, 2021, 01:43:05 pm »

Private accomodation (not cages) within a larger facility for truly unaccompanied youths (not children, as young as babes in arms, ripped from families) that features proper meals, entertainment and education and has on-site accomodation for lawyers/representatives as they actively try to establish residential sponsorship and strive to place them with suitable families.

Not perfect, especially as it was a pre-build of cheap generic temporary cabins[1] under the aegis of the prior regime, but a helluva lot better than the aggressive long-term cage-packing (with low cots and space-blankets, if lucky) we were seeing in the last administration.

Find the other photos out there, showing the actual site, or its true boundary, while respecting the privacy of anyone underage and not yet having (foster-)families to move on to.


[1] Like on building sites, and proofed against break-ins.
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Dostoevsky

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44077 on: February 24, 2021, 01:49:40 pm »

Eh, doesn't change the very sanitary language now being used in places like the Post. While their article does include some criticisms, it's rather tucked away and the photos taken are in a much different style than before. (i.e. clean areas carefully setup with nobody present as opposed to actual implementation.)

While this isn't a 1:1 to the cages of the Trump era, places like the Post are pulling their punches now.
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thompson

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44078 on: February 24, 2021, 03:09:19 pm »

The double standards are very real, but it usually isn’t too hard to see past it. I guess it comes down to whether we want to talk about the issue, or the way others are talking about the issue*.

*Then we could talk about our own discussion of others talking about the issue, and so on to infinity.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44079 on: February 24, 2021, 03:13:07 pm »

"Look at all these illegal children we've been catching." - the proud(boy) boasts from recent times, shameless and shaming in roughly equal measure.

"Look at the facilities we're currently using to way-house the vulnerable." - the relevent, and possibly apologetic, overview of what is being done instead.

Even if there's a sanitised take on it (there always will be differences across such changes, with both the media and the subject of the report) you have to agree there's an entirely set of optics involved. And it looks better to me, in all aspects, boding better yet.

(What would be worrying is not allowing any access to this. I'm surprised they've turned things around so quickly. Half-believable that this was greatly helped by being already partly set up by #45, but kept quiet because it didn't match his prefered aura of 'enforcement' and needed not so much overhaul. But you can bet your bottom dollar it was revamped too.)
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44080 on: February 24, 2021, 03:37:04 pm »

Outrage, outrage everywhere... never any "It's not ideal, but it's a start."

To be fair, I liked that AOC at least had a response to the question about "well we have to put them somewhere - what do you suggest?" that didn't sound canned.  I still feel that AOC, while idealist, is missing some practicality.  Yeah you can come up with some licensed centers - but how do you fund it?  How do you fund the agencies that provide oversight to those licensed centers?  How do you both manage the real humanitarian need to have such centers simultaneously with the overall societal economic realities of no such thing as a free lunch?

I mean I agree that such centers are not zero sum; in the long run they increase the overall standard of living of society. In the short term, though, you do have zero sum; the returns are not instantaneous.

And that doesn't even touch on the political issues of "there are all these people here that I didn't invite" and similar attitudes.
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Dostoevsky

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44081 on: February 24, 2021, 03:54:52 pm »

(What would be worrying is not allowing any access to this. I'm surprised they've turned things around so quickly. Half-believable that this was greatly helped by being already partly set up by #45, but kept quiet because it didn't match his prefered aura of 'enforcement' and needed not so much overhaul. But you can bet your bottom dollar it was revamped too.)

The Post article linked does mention that this is actually a Trump-era facility being reopened, albeit one described by a critic as "the Cadillac of [migrant child] centers." (The use of brackets here does make me wonder what term the critic used.) To that point, hopefully the press continues to monitor to see if other (likely worse) facilities end up reopening.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44082 on: February 24, 2021, 04:20:15 pm »

It's actually incorrect, I've heard, to replace words in a quote with an editor's note. The editor's note should only be supplemental but the entirety of the original quote should be presented to avoid being misleading.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44083 on: February 24, 2021, 04:32:38 pm »

My (non-expert) understanding is that brackets like that are usually used when it's unclear what the quote would be otherwise, e.g. "I didn't like [the quote]" as opposed to "I didn't like it," but the use of bracketing here seems a little odd.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44084 on: February 24, 2021, 05:17:54 pm »

Easily could be something like a fuller statement of "There are many types of child migrant centers. The Power Cable, Montana¹ complex is considered to be the Cadillac of those centers." It would, in this case, expand 'those' for context.

It'd be an editorial condition. And I've seen "After drinks, he said he would do the thing." rationalised as "[He] said he would do the thing." (Overkill of 'safe-paraphrasing'.).

It could also be an expansion. Over here an MP in London might say "I have no faith in LOTO!", to a reporter, using an acronym common and familiar within Westminster (and he knows the reporter knows/uses it themselves, maybe moreso). But it would need to be expanded to "[the Leader Of The Opposition]" or even "[Sir Kier Starmer]" to make sense to the reading public.  Though it might make you (the reader) wonder if it was a contextualised "him" or a sanitised "that idiot". ;). So "CM" or something (silly?) like "ChiMi" could have been the in-crowd term in this case.



¹ Because I forget its actual location.
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