Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 2935 2936 [2937] 2938 2939 ... 3567

Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4229355 times)

Vector

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44040 on: February 22, 2021, 02:03:20 pm »

What I don't know is that they should get paid a standard wage and get subsidized room and board and such.

I mean, they're apparently being woken up every 15 minutes or so to recite their numbers, often the water is unclean, no heat in showers, food substandard at best and often containing maggots, woken up at 3 AM to eat a baloney sandwich and given all of 10 minutes to do it because overcrowding means that people need to eat in shifts. During COVID, prisoners were not given masks or cleaning supplies and of course could not social distance. The free population has argued that despite this, they should be at the back of the line for vaccination, even though the risk of their dying is much higher.

People often get the wrong medication for their conditions, if treated at all (if a prisoner is in danger due to, say, being LGBT, the remedy is that that prisoner be placed in solitary confinement, i.e. tortured, for their safety) and the experience of prison both exacerbates existing mental health issues, and causes them: schizophrenia, bipolar, PTSD, etc.

Actually, as it turns out, the prison system is the US's largest provider of mental health care.

So I suppose what I would say is: they're paying for the services they get, such as they are, with their freedom. If a man does a day's job, he should earn a man's wages.

(And as for women -- they give birth in shackles. We won't talk here about the value of women's work.)


Reality is that prisoners in the US are often being subsidized by people outside prison paying for commissary and sending books and whatnot and are not provided even a toothbrush by the prison. And that virtually all of the rich avoid jail time. And that the massive expansion of the US prison system started post-Civil War when laws targeting Black people (the Black codes) made it illegal to hang out on the street corner or give the impression of not having a job (being "indigent).

Before that, it wasn't illegal to be homeless . . . but conveniently, now that homelessness is criminalized, you can put people on a chain gang and make use of them. But because the state is seen as adding value to the prisoner by forcing him to work, he shall not be paid otherwise.
Logged
"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44041 on: February 22, 2021, 02:14:27 pm »

Also if minimum wage + cost of living isn't a dope incentive to rather employ people than to enslave them, what is?
I'm having a hard time parsing this sentence...  Are you trying to suggest that it's cheaper to provide minimum wage + cost living (which is a bit odd, usually "cost of living" should be funded by minimum wage. But that's a different discussion...) than it is to enslave people?  Unfortunately history doesn't bear that out.  Maintaining a society that doesn't rely on slavery is hard work.

Part of what makes it "hard work" is that it depends on the diligence of a large enough portion of the population - it can't just be "the government" (unless you want everyone to be part of the government, I suppose).

Also I didn't say that "there's no room" to pay imprisoned laborers. I'm saying that if you pay them without fixing the rest of the system it's not going to matter how much you pay them.  I think we're in agreement here.... yes?

As for why 60% of people (I assume you mean working adults) cannot afford a $1000 emergency... I really can't say why that is.  There are far too many factors to just claim "it's because people aren't paid enough."  I know people who have amassed savings on $20k/year income, and I know people who are effectively penniless that make more than $100k/year.  The complicated mix of personal and systemic issues is... complex.
Logged
This product contains deoxyribonucleic acid which is known to the State of California to cause cancer, reproductive harm, and other health issues.

MrRoboto75

  • Bay Watcher
  • Belongs in the Trash!
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44042 on: February 22, 2021, 02:23:28 pm »

I make roughly 20+k a year, the only real reason I have savings is because I literally cannot afford my own housing and its monthly cost, I'd be well into the red if I bothered to try.  My utilities, phone, internet etc are basically subsidized.
Logged
I consume
I purchase
I consume again

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44043 on: February 22, 2021, 02:34:49 pm »

There's a bit of an ouroboros in the prison system. The root problem is that so many politicians responded to the (quite genuine) crime wave through the 1980s (which ended in 1993) with a long series of "tough on crime" laws culminating in the infamous 1994 Crime Bill (the authors of which, to be fair, would not yet have had the data to show that the crime rate was already dropping like a stone - that's always going to be hugely delayed). This mean that a huge number of people were locked up in the interest of public safety, even though a pretty huge percentage of them were things like simple possession and other broken-window crimes that really didn't hurt society all that much. So there was suddenly a massive prison population that cost the state a huge amount of money to house and feed, and which crowded the existing prison system to the breaking point.


So they turned to a pair of institutions that have long been around, but never on this scale. Private prisons have always been a thing in the US, dating back to the aftermath of the Revolution. In the past, however, this made up a relatively small portion of the incaration system, and most private prisons were gradually taken over by the public sector.

Prison labor became a major thing after the Civil War, when inmates were brought in to do some of the work that had previously been done by slaves. This iteration of the practice died out in the early 20th century, but use of convicts for jobs that were particularly dangerous or backbreaking (such as swamp clearing and road building) continued for a long time. In the middle of the century, prison labor was used as a formal part of the rehabilitation process - the theory was that the inmate would get useful skills for post-prison life, and spending time stamping out license plates or such would help him feel like a man rather than caged animal.

The huge rush toward mass incarceration post 1980 brought these systems into the forefront, because the state and federal governments desperately needed a way to cut costs, but relaxing crime policy had become political suicide. So the prison-industrial complex was assembled. Now, 40 years later, the issue has become that this complex doesn't want their profitable applecart overturned, and is thus putting a lot of lobbying effort into keeping the incarceration rate up.


The solution is a fundamentally simple one, but it is politically difficult. End broken-windows policing (and, more importantly, release previously arrested broken-windows offenders), treat drug addiction as a medical issue instead of a criminal one, and rebuild a functional mental-health system so people that are temporarily dangerous to themselves or others are given treatment instead of prison. Do that, and the problem vanishes. The prisons empty out, the private jailers go bankrupt, and prison labor ceases to be a part of the economy.

This is going to be difficult to do because it will attract hate from both sides. On one end, you'll have a lot of screaming about coddling criminals and letting the rapists and murderers (who would remain locked up, but that never gets in the way of rhetoric) run wild. On the other, you're going to have screaming about "uinless all prisons are destroyed today, there is no improvement! Reform is facism!".
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

Vector

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44044 on: February 22, 2021, 02:39:24 pm »

I'm gonna add that the sex offender registry apparently grew out of registries for grown men who had sex with grown men :D

the more you know~
Logged
"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44045 on: February 22, 2021, 02:44:47 pm »

The first such registry in the US was California's in 1947, at a time when male-male relations were a sex crime, so that is quite plausible.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

MrRoboto75

  • Bay Watcher
  • Belongs in the Trash!
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44046 on: February 22, 2021, 02:47:16 pm »

I mean, they did offend people, with their sex. :P
Logged
I consume
I purchase
I consume again

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44047 on: February 22, 2021, 03:05:59 pm »

This is going to be difficult to do because it will attract hate from both sides. On one end, you'll have a lot of screaming about coddling criminals and letting the rapists and murderers (who would remain locked up, but that never gets in the way of rhetoric) run wild. On the other, you're going to have screaming about "uinless all prisons are destroyed today, there is no improvement! Reform is facism!".

"Can you imagine all these real opinions that the right has and these fake opinions that the left doesn't have? Just dreadful, why can't we use common sense instead?"
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Vector

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44048 on: February 22, 2021, 03:23:28 pm »

Yeah, the criticism on the left for prison reform is for the incrementalist, neoliberal style "building of a kinder, gentler prison" that doesn't actually result in fewer people being exploited and more people getting free.
Logged
"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44049 on: February 22, 2021, 03:28:45 pm »

Considering I've had people scream that exact opinion in my face, I'm not making it up. That attitude is real.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44050 on: February 22, 2021, 03:31:49 pm »

Ultimately, prison abolition.

Before that, the full recognition of the rights of prisoners, including rights of political participation and labor. It's the state that has imprisoned the prisoners - that's not a part of their labor benefit because it's not something they did.

Before that, tearing the current system of courts and prisons the fuck apart, most notably private prisons but also the conscious encouragement of violence and recidivism that even "good" prisons practice. If you can hold Bernie Madoff in a locked vacation resort then you can do the same for a guy from Mississipi who sold weed.
What do you replace the prison system with? I genuinely don't know what you could replace it with despite it's many flaws

Random_Dragon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Psycho Bored Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44051 on: February 22, 2021, 03:34:35 pm »

Having a functional infrastructure for treating drug addiction, and a mental health care system that actually works, would cut down on the need for the prison system by a massive amount, even if it won't be enough to eliminate it.
Logged
On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44052 on: February 22, 2021, 03:38:00 pm »

While total abolition will not work, because there are people who genuinely need locked up, the vast majority of inmates would be better served with community service, education programs, mental health treatment, or other forms of rehabilitation. You could almost certainly eliminate 70-90 percent of the prison population at a considerably cheaper price than incarcerating them.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44053 on: February 22, 2021, 03:47:57 pm »

What do you replace the prison system with? I genuinely don't know what you could replace it with despite it's many flaws
Primarily, you replace it with a strong society. I don't think it's very controversial to say that crime is not a societal constant - there are places with extreme amounts of crime, and there are places with very little crime. This doesn't track towards the harshness of response to crime either. Some places with extremely violent response to crime also have extreme crime. The trend seems to be quite clearly correlated with the health of societal norms, though.

Putting people in boxes is bad, so we'll whittle down the justifications for putting people in boxes. Get rid of the bullshit crimes (drug war, immigration, homelessness, etc), get rid of the sources of crime (mental illness, desperation, supremacism, legal system failings), and address what of the remainder you can through restorative justice (criminal provides restitution to the victim rather than the state, and receives reintegration to society in exchange).

Will there still be people who are just unmitigated violent assholes after all that work? Maybe. But even some of the extreme cases like serial killers and mass shooters are historically founded in the conditions of their upbringing, ideology, and society. It might just work. But even if it doesn't and we have to keep some prisons, I am very confident we can do a hell of a lot better than this. What we're doing right now isn't even trying to fix crimes against human beings, it's just exalting the power of the state but with a good PR department.

If it even partially succeeds it would be an atrocity not to try, given what else the prison system results in.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Dostoevsky

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44054 on: February 22, 2021, 03:50:41 pm »

criminal provides restitution to the victim rather than the state

Could you explain this more? To me this calls up indentured servitude, though I doubt that's what you're referring to.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 2935 2936 [2937] 2938 2939 ... 3567