Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 2779 2780 [2781] 2782 2783 ... 3567

Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4230371 times)

Lidku

  • Bay Watcher
  • Enclave here, why isn't your video feed working?
    • View Profile
    • [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Ylvdlc5.jpg[/IMG]
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41700 on: November 08, 2020, 07:27:16 am »

Nah, most Trump supporters came to his whims because of his bold racist rhetoric from the very beginning. They don't care about none of the stuff you mentioned.
Logged

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41701 on: November 08, 2020, 07:55:00 am »

Even if it was just a show and has zero substance*, at least the speeches from Harris and Biden felt like they were coming from statesmen.  Even when it was turning the screws against the big complaints against divisiveness and hubris, it was still done without sounding like petulance.


*I doubt it was that skewed. I do think that team will try to do some of the things they say. I would call it a resounding success if all we get is a strengthened CDC and at a least a willingness for the two parties to try and talk to each other again instead of against each other.  And I think Biden's statement about that starting with who is sitting in the Oval Office is correct - that example is huge (heh).

I don't even care bout policy so much at this point - we can keep most of the policies we have in place for 4 years and be no worse for wear. We do have to heal character and unity and such though.  If you have those in place - especially the idea of treating all humans like people -  I think policy will flow from that.
Logged
This product contains deoxyribonucleic acid which is known to the State of California to cause cancer, reproductive harm, and other health issues.

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41702 on: November 08, 2020, 10:27:18 am »

Before we miss this one. Trump's team booked a press conference (for Guiliani) at a Four Seasons. Except, they seem to somehow failed to book the hotel, and rented a store called Four Seasons Total Landscaping, which is a small shop in between a sex store and a mortuary. They then *actually* held the press conference in the parking lot out back.

As is the Trump way, never admit you made a mistake even when you got no pants on.

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/us-politics/us-election-trump-laywer-rudy-giulianis-four-seasons-total-landscaping-press-conference-mistake-goes-viral/news-story/0adff3225ed3ae9e8478874565749f85

Mephisto

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41703 on: November 08, 2020, 10:41:28 am »

My favorite theory is that Trump tweeted the "Speech at Four Seasons" tweet before they called and the hotel said no. To appear not weak, he told them to find a different Four Seasons.
Logged

Flying Dice

  • Bay Watcher
  • inveterate shitposter
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41704 on: November 08, 2020, 10:46:18 am »

Nah, most Trump supporters came to his whims because of his bold racist rhetoric from the very beginning. They don't care about none of the stuff you mentioned.

You're completely wrong.

I'm Kentuckian. Do you know why McConnell keeps getting re-elected? Because he's pro-coal. And yeah, sure, if you live outside the coalfield regions you might know that on paper, but you don't understand. The state is full of little towns where just about every single family for four or five generations back made their living mining coal. Then the market for manual mining dried up, not because of regulation, but because the deposits that can be readily accessed and extracted by hand are mostly gone. These communities have literally nothing -- no jobs, no money, no prospects for the future. Most of the residents can't afford to move away, alcoholism and drug use run rampant. They don't know what to do.

So someone promises to bring back the jobs. Doesn't matter that that's impossible and those jobs will never return. Doesn't matter that it's been the same empty promise for nigh on forty years. For someone who knows that their way of life is in ruins, has no hope, and has no path to a future, even an empty promise feels better than nothing.

If you pretend that the populist trend on the right is rooted in different things from the one on the left, you're fooling yourself. Americans across the board know that something went wrong. The difference is in what they attribute that to.

Now, obviously I'm left-leaning (though also anti-Marxist; they're as bad as capitalists and fascists in terms of creating and perpetuating human suffering), so my answer is Reagan, neoliberalism, and the massive deregulation, stratification of wealth, and bolstering of the military-industrial complex that accompanied their rise. A right-leaning person probably wouldn't agree with me on the reasons, but they likely would agree on the nature of at least some of the problems -- wealth disparity, environmental degradation, &c. Someone like that can be compromised with, worked with, reasoned with, in the way that could you could pre~1980s when you started seeing the massive polarization of the national legislature.

The frothing-at-the-mouth fanatic types, regardless of whether they're capitalists, communists, or fascists? They're all relics of the 19th and 20th centuries adhering to failed ideological doctrines that have each caused immense harm to millions of individuals and human civilization as a whole. They not only can't be reasoned with, but should be intentionally excluded from discourse. They have nothing to contribute towards the problems of today or tomorrow and will poison any dialogue they're involved in.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 10:49:40 am by Flying Dice »
Logged


Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

martinuzz

  • Bay Watcher
  • High dwarf
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41705 on: November 08, 2020, 01:00:00 pm »

Logged
Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

The_Explorer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41706 on: November 08, 2020, 02:34:20 pm »

(edit: I see a thread called what makes you sad today, this be better there)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 02:42:16 pm by The_Explorer »
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41707 on: November 08, 2020, 02:47:16 pm »

and rented a store called Four Seasons Total Landscaping, which is a small shop in between a sex store and a mortuary.
He just doesn't know if he's coming or going...
Logged

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41708 on: November 08, 2020, 02:47:38 pm »

Now, obviously I'm left-leaning (though also anti-Marxist; they're as bad as capitalists and fascists in terms of creating and perpetuating human suffering), so my answer is Reagan, neoliberalism, and the massive deregulation, stratification of wealth, and bolstering of the military-industrial complex that accompanied their rise. A right-leaning person probably wouldn't agree with me on the reasons, but they likely would agree on the nature of at least some of the problems -- wealth disparity, environmental degradation, &c. Someone like that can be compromised with, worked with, reasoned with, in the way that could you could pre~1980s when you started seeing the massive polarization of the national legislature.

The frothing-at-the-mouth fanatic types, regardless of whether they're capitalists, communists, or fascists? They're all relics of the 19th and 20th centuries adhering to failed ideological doctrines that have each caused immense harm to millions of individuals and human civilization as a whole. They not only can't be reasoned with, but should be intentionally excluded from discourse. They have nothing to contribute towards the problems of today or tomorrow and will poison any dialogue they're involved in.
You're an anti-leninist it sounds like, don't paint Marx with his stupid brush thanks. We're JUST NOW getting close to a point where the shit Marx was talking about could actually happen realistically, in spite of that stupid fucking cunt Lenin and his "skip to the end" bullshit.


As for taxes, I'm pretty disappointed seeing people support Trump who actually believed Biden was gonna raise their taxes, I shouldn't be disappointed a mouthbreathing turd stupid enough to support Trump is stupid enough to chow down on anything served to their gullible ass, but I am somehow.

Trump had one "achievement" in office, namely his "tax cut" which featured stealth increases that are going to start phasing in next year on folks earning between 10k and 30k a year. By 2027 everyone making under 100k a year would be paying more than they did before Trump and his bullshit, while everyone earning more would actually get a tax cut.

Explaining this to someone stupid enough to vote for Trump twice though is a lost cause, at best you can try to fight the disinformation amongst those who heard the secondhand talking points but haven't yet caught the brainrot.
Logged

Doomblade187

  • Bay Watcher
  • Requires music to get through the working day.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41709 on: November 08, 2020, 03:25:24 pm »

@McTraveller: the desire for a "return to normal" is nice and all, but it will do nothing but ensure a second trump cones along. Probably a smarter one, too. The grievances that elected him (and they were not all racially motivated, though many of them were) are still present, and will not go away if this term is just neolibs doing their thing
Logged
In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.

Lidku

  • Bay Watcher
  • Enclave here, why isn't your video feed working?
    • View Profile
    • [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Ylvdlc5.jpg[/IMG]
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41710 on: November 08, 2020, 05:32:36 pm »

Quote from: Flying Dice
Do you know why McConnell keeps getting re-elected?

What does McConnell have to do with Trump? It doesn't change my original point because the discussion is based around Trump solely. Yeah McConnell has his own reasons for meeting each of his terms successfully among his base (for the reasons you mentioned about him), but again, this topic is about Trump.

His main catchphrase of attention that got him support from the racist element of the US was saying he was going to build a wall on the border. He deliberately called Mexicans rapists and criminals. However this isn't to discount the certain malign elements such as drug and human trafficking or illegal immigration, but still. From there we've seen a whole lot of undercurrents of general racism from his administration while in office.

Sure there are some Trump supporters who supported him for his slogan "MAGA" and resparking of "what was lost" or for some of his other policies, but the vast majority supported him because he was something racists had seen as a beacon to make their views be acceptable. The fact he had Steve Bannon as his chief strategist says as much as well.
Logged

SOLDIER First

  • Bay Watcher
  • Trans fucking rights, baby.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41711 on: November 08, 2020, 05:57:51 pm »

we cannot "return to normal" in a country of rampant, state-sponsored extrajudicial murders, migrant concentration camps, foreign meddling, mass poverty, and unguaranteed universal human rights. this next four years must be better than "normal" or biden might not have been elected in the first place for all the good it will do.

and, quite frankly, anyone who was willing to spend the last four years supporting a radical christian, anti-lgbt, white supremacist, american exceptionalist piece of garbage like trump is not worth having any sort of unity with. why should anyone deign to treat them with acceptance and kindness when they refuse to give any of the same to so many people in this country and the world? why is it that the left must always take the high road in the face of utter, unending intolerance from the right?
Logged
Black lives matter.

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41712 on: November 08, 2020, 06:53:08 pm »

@McTraveller: the desire for a "return to normal" is nice and all, but it will do nothing but ensure a second trump cones along. Probably a smarter one, too. The grievances that elected him (and they were not all racially motivated, though many of them were)

Well historically speaking, the racial thing is a scapegoat for the underlying grievances. The 'average' German in the 1930s probably wasn't largely motivated by anti-Jewish sentiment as the underlying reason they were pissed off, it was the collapse of the economy post 1929, and the Nazis, who were the full on anti-semitic people then capitalized by directing that anger at a scapegoat. Similarly the rank and file Nazis probably couldn't really give a shit about Jews or otherwise. They were in it for the power and/or freedom to commit violence. For example, if the death camps had non-Jews mixed in there by accident, do you think any of the killers would give a shit. They couldn't really care any less. They only wanted to kill a bunch of people, regardless of who they were killing. Anti-human at the heart of it, and any specific traits of the people they were killing were only window dressing which made it ok. Run out of Jews, gays, communists etc and they'd probably round up the dirty stamp collectors or train spotters and kill those people too. If such a thing goes on long enough, the bar is constantly lowered on who you're killing / arresting, see Stalin's Russia for examples of that.

Similarly, Trump capitalizes on rust belt loss of jobs by directing that anger at Chinese and hispanics (your job went overseas or someone from overseas is coming to take your job), and capitalizes on urban decay and infrastructure under-investment by directing anger at black people / hispanics (fears of social instability and neighborhoods being encroached by crime). The people losing their jobs aren't motivated by a deep seated hatred of Chinese people: in neutral circumstances they wouldn't have any opinion on them one way or another.

I think it would be similar with black people too, plenty of southern racist types seem ok with specific black people they meet, the 'ok' ones, but they will still speak out against the 'group' as a whole but they do so in broad terms linking them to, and blaming them for, negative societal issues and trends. Correct me if I'm totally off base, but relatively few will ever say they don't like black people just because they're black, but rather they link them to real social issues (poverty, homelessness, crime, drugs, collapse of families etc) which are perfectly reasonable to be concerned about, it's just not reasonable to make it a race issue, and that's where the political right come in and exploit these underlying fears of social instability by directing those fears at recognizable targets.

Also, by making those issues a thing that's about black people you no longer have to think about them as much, since they by definition are happening to someone else. So it's no longer the point that family structures are broadly collapsing and divorce rates are skyrocketing, that's the fault of the Democrats and their inner city policies related to black people.

I'll add onto what Max said here, Marx's Historical Materialism is a whole different kettle of fish to the idea of bolting-together a "communist society". Historical Materialism is about how productive forces in a society lead to technological changes and how those changes inevitably change the economic status quo, leading to a paradigm shift*. It takes the emphasis away from specific choices and focuses on systemic trends. e.g. capitalism was the inevitable outcome of the industrial revolution, basically because it outcompetes rival systems. The point here is that systems which outcompete other systems inevitably rise to be the dominant system. Nietzsche makes similar points. Leninist style communist states attempt to control the whole milieu, so they don't allow the competitive forces that Marx was talking about to even take place. A centralized state which tries to aggressively hold back the competitive elements of production is not much different to a theocratic state which tries to hold back the flood of new ideas and science, and both end up having elements in common.

* the paradigm shift in Marx's communism is actually the point at which the process of automation makes labor itself obsolete (“labor has become not only a means of life but life’s prime want.”. Consider this as the idea that work itself is moving up Maslow's heirarchy of needs over time; so communism is the point at which you don't need to work for basic needs at all, but you work to have something to do). And he argues that at this point the existing capitalism mechanisms for distributing goods will no longer make any sense: since the economic forces shape the society, it's when there's a paradigm shift in the economic forces that a new system can arise, and not before that. So any state which centralizes the concept of labor as the organizing principle isn't in fact "communism" under Marx's definition. In fact such labor-states actually fight against the very advancements that would lead to the communist state as envisioned by Marx, since you get vested interests to keep the centrality of labor in the economy, i.e. forced job placements and economic disincentives to further automate since you have to employ those people anyway.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 07:27:40 pm by Reelya »
Logged

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41713 on: November 08, 2020, 07:58:22 pm »

Point is, if Democrats for the next 4 years behave as they did the last couple times they've been in power, then the underlying grievances will continue to deepen.  And that's why we'll get Ultra-Trump in 4-8 years.  This Trump was a product of the Democrat flavor of "norms, civility, and unity".  If people don't learn from that, it's just going to continue to get worse.

Just going to shamelessly quote myself from a couple pages ago.  It needs to be repeated over and over and over again.  Seeing all the pro-Biden enthusiasm and fawning over "oh my god it makes me feel so good to see a president that behaves presidential" stuff just reinforced to me how much it needs to be repeated.  I can understand celebrating Trump ousted from office.  But Biden's victory speech should have been barren.  The celebrations shouldn't include proud displays of Biden 2020 merchandise.  Or... shit like this... *vomit*... These things demonstrate to me that too many people have learned nothing.  So I'm going to be a broken record here.

People aren't born fascists.  They're driven to it by a combination of fear, insecurity, humiliation, unstable circumstances, propaganda, and cult figures.  Ultimately summarized as bad times + cultural issues.  And *one of* the culture issues I'm referring to specifically is: If we are indiscriminately mocking and smug towards people who aren't yet fascists, we drive them away from our culture towards the one that will accept them.  That the ideology will follow is an inevitability. 

I know many out there will quickly retort "If someone decides to become a fascist because someone said something mean to them, then they were probably a fascist piece of shit all along and we don't want them!"  But this is absurdly reductionist, and would be comical in how dishonest or stupid it is, if it didn't threaten to doom us all.  Tell someone they're a piece of shit who needs to go stand in the corner with the other pieces of shit enough, and eventually you'll generate a person who sympathizes and bands together with the other pieces of shit, no matter how virtuous they may have once been.  Do this to everyone who ever produces a whiff of bad smell, and you're going to make a real problem for yourself.

I'm sensitive to this right now, because what I genuinely predict is a worse Trump in 4-8 years.  Because all the political talk I see out there indicates to me that few have learned anything.  Like earlier today when I was looking at comments on a political meme post about holding Democrat's feet to the fire after putting them in power, and the only comment bringing up how this worked out in 2008-2010 generating nothing but responses defending Obama.  The irony is fucking incredible.  We're going to get worse than Trump, because Democrat neoliberalism is going to double down.  Everyone's going to continue to feel the crunch of working harder and harder year after year under increasing productivity demands, while their lives get continually poorer and more unstable, and the apocalypse looms ever larger over an endless horizon of riot cops and surveillance cameras.  Plenty of those fed up with it will become both party-hating lefty anarchists like me.  But plenty of others will rub shoulders with the other pipeline, one way or another.  They repeat something they heard but don't feel too much conviction about to the wrong person while lost in an understandable haze of confused angst, get called a piece of shit who needs to go stand with the other pieces of shit, and there's one more likely shoved down the rabbit hole towards Ultra-Trump 2024.  And watch... the Democrats will force someone barely distinguishable from Normal Trump through their primaries and tell us that we have to vote for them to stop Ultra-Trump, less we be held responsible for whatever happens when Ultra-Trump is elected, who is the greatest threat to democracy the world has ever seen (while shitting all over any semblance of democracy in their own primary).  Meanwhile, Michelle and Ellen or their 2024 equivalents will start to talk about how they're actually best friends with the Normal Trump family.

Have a Guardian piece articulating the same basic concept in more detail.

The last 4 years were not about Trump.  He was a symptom.  Not the problem, and "norms, civility, and unity" are not the solution.  Understanding that people aren't just randomly born terrible, actually making their lives better, and making sure they know why their lives got better is the solution.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 08:24:05 pm by SalmonGod »
Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

ZBridges

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41714 on: November 08, 2020, 08:08:32 pm »

I'm curious as to what the "shit like this" link is, but right now it's broken.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 2779 2780 [2781] 2782 2783 ... 3567