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[nenjin]

"Just because the guy I'm voting for is ok with fascism doesn't mean I'm ok with it."

[dragdeler]

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[Il Palazzo]

Keep working on that echo chamber, guys. It's still leaking a bit.

[dragdeler]

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[SOLDIER First]

when "being intolerant of fascists and people who are tolerant of fascism" becomes an echo chamber

world war 2: the "allied" echo chamber vs the reasonable axis debate team

[dragdeler]

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[nenjin]

The only echo chamber is people voting for Trump willfully trying to not be associated with all the shit flying around inside of it, despite CHOOSING to be there.

[McTraveller]

I think many of the far-right views are indeed the enemy.  But we still should hold out hope that the people who are currently our enemies may be redeemed.  Of course, they probably feel the same way with the viewpoints reversed.  Or at least you hope they think you can be redeemed instead of just eradicated.  As soon as people stop thinking of others also as people, that's when atrocities occur.

I see the claims for "this view should be silenced" and "these behaviors should be stopped."  What I very rarely see, though, is a practical method for effecting those goals that doesn't suffer from viewpoint bias or devolve into "burn all the things."

A sequence I would try would be something like:
1. Appeal to their dignity. Ask them questions about what they want and why they think their approach will get them there. Ask what they think about others.  Don't say "ugh you're wrong or terrible" - just understand.

2. If they don't start to self-question, and they really aren't willing to change:  stop participating in and enabling the systems that perpetuate that belief.  You can often go a lot further by "fighting evil with kindness" than you can by fighting back.  Just don't participate. Don't beat people for being evil - fight evil by being the thing they aren't.

3. Sometimes you have to abandon an area, when it's so polluted you get poisoned just by being there.  Often if you just leave an area, the rot will rot away, since it has nothing on which to feed.  You can try and isolate off a preferred area, and just abandon the stuff outside.  Yes there are systematic things in place which like to prevent such separation, but that's a sadness - sometimes you really do just have to let people be separate.

[bloop_bleep]

^ THIS. Online I see a lot of virtue signaling and superiority posturing and not a lot of convincing.

[Doomblade187]

Those are generally the methods I use when engaging people who are leaning right, yeah. The important thing to track is whether or not thy're willing to question their views or not, and that's more of an isssue for the hardcore believer crowd just because of the cognitive dissonance.

Edit; I totally start shitposting at them if they're unapologetic tho :p

[dragdeler]

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[nenjin]

4 years, a dump truck full of drama, disrespect, ignorance, baiting aggression....and people need convincing? This is what is stupid. Like the onus is on people that have been paying attention to convince people who have up until now just buried their head in the sand that they're still supporting a goon who is bad for the American electorate as a whole.

It's the same bullshit with disinformation. The amount of disinformation out there is meant to EXHAUST people who have actually been paying attention into just giving up, because they have to address each and every stupid conspiracy, lie or fabrication in an effort to convince people who have zero interest in doing any of that leg work themselves. They're exhausted debunking or fact checking utter nonsense before they EVEN get to substantive issues. That has been the play book ever since Trump was elected. Wage a war of disinformation, turn information culture against itself so no one can even talk about the same thing without being dragged down into debating things that can't be proven until one or both just give up.

It's like a dude sets themselves on fire then looks at you and goes "Go 4 miles down the road and grab a bucket of water, because I'm sure as hell not convinced it's necessary, so you do it." Most people would just leave them to their stupidity and let them cook. Except instead of just burning themselves down, they're hugging all the shit you care about while they roast.

I don't have the patience for that shit. If someone can look at the landscape around them and go "what's the big deal", then they're either stupid or just willfully ignorant and baiting the people they disagree with. That makes them part of the problem, not some mythical uncorrupted, maybe undecided unicorn that should be sat down and reasoned with, convinced, cajoled and handled with kids gloves because their stupid opinion is oh so precious. Where is the reciprocity huh? Where are the Trump voters carefully taking the time to discuss with those opposed to him why he is a good choice? It doesn't happen because they're not interested and frankly don't have a fucking leg to stand on other than, now, "Oh Hunter Biden Emails" and the classic "Oh Hilary's Emails." Or maybe a good dose of "Deep State." "Oh but all liberals want to do is fight so why bother." Once again placing the onus on someone else for being the bigger person, which results in absolutely nothing changing.

Maintaining a stance of intellectual dishonesty while demanding others practice it is both hypocritical and designed to prevent any real discussion, learning or changing of beliefs. So fuck 'em. If you still need convincing another 4 years of Trump is bad, then you don't really need convincing, you're just trying to waste someone else's time, energy, patience and good will. Why bother. Put on your fuckin' MAGA hat so we know just to ignore you.

[SalmonGod]

Just catching up on this thread today and jesus christ so many pages in the past, what, 12 hours?.  So this is... relatively recent, if buried now, but deserves correcting regardless since it doesn't look like anyone else did.

Also no evidence of Trump having done pedo stuff, or incest stuff beyond saying Ivanka is pretty and he’d probably date her if he wasn’t related to her. Icky, sure, but nothing solid.

There was the whole thing with the teen beauty pageants Trump sponsored, where he had a reputation for visiting the girl's dressing room *as they were changing*.  He claimed it was only an inspection, and it was his right as the person paying for the event.  His inspection would amount to just standing around ogling (girls as young as 15).  This was verified by multiple girls who had experienced that ogling, and openly bragged about by Trump himself before he had political aspirations.  Everybody really does seem to have forgotten about this.  Obligatory 10-second google'd link.  I'm sure a better one can be found.

Not to mention the Epstein connections.

Trump is 100% definitely a pedo.

(Look, Frumple.  I really do go out of my way to make sure people are aware of Republican's dirty shit, too.  It just isn't really necessary most of the time, because it's just preaching to the choir in a place like this, which isn't a meaningful contribution unless there's some breaking news to spread.)

[SOLDIER First]

in order to convince a trump supporter to stop supporting trump you have to either convince them that being racist, homophobic, sexist, transphobic, or religiously intolerant is bad, and that trump is any one of those things, which is generally impossible because you are incredibly hard-pressed to find anyeone with a shred of human decency or empathy for other people who would willingly support that man

or you can convince them that the economic policies of his administration are not good, they are actually bad, and specifically that the ones that are bad for his supporters are bad for them in the first place, which is also generally impossible - but less so, as there do indeed exist some people smart enough to actually understand how trump's decisions and actions affect people. they're just too selfish to care until those decisions actually affect themselves, but hey, a win's a win when it comes to these people

anyway, if you'd like to spend your own time, energy, and sanity performing that emotional labor for us, be my guest. otherwise, shut the fuck up, because i don't want to listen to you speak any more.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I've flipped at least one Trump supporter before, but it took every strategy of persuasion I've ever learned and years of effort.