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[RedKing]

Spin here claims to be an actual member of the capitalist class, so it's literally a gated world.

So again, future vittles (and tent and knife handle, etc.)
Waste not, want not!

[Maximum Spin]

I'm seriously just middle-class, but I own land and have investments, yes. It's not like that's a high bar.

But you know what, sure. You're all invited to come to Upstate New York where the land is cheap and the living is easy.

[Dostoevsky]

Roughly 52% of Americans have some form of investment (mostly a 401k or the like, I think) and the "homeownership rate" is about 64%. That latter number is somewhat misleading though, as it's the percentage of people who live in a house owned by an occupant as opposed the percentage of adults who own their own property.

So one can technically be middle class and have these things, but over 100 million Americans lack at least one of those.

[RedKing]

I'm seriously just middle-class, but I own land and have investments, yes. It's not like that's a high bar.

Yeah, everybody likes to think they're just an average Joe. Just like Trump getting a "small loan" of a million dollars from his dad.

[Reelya]

The homeownership rate isn't particularly revealing of how different economies are doing. if you look at the comparisons, many places with lower rates are countries a lot of people would prefer to live in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

[Maximum Spin]

Roughly 52% of Americans have some form of investment (mostly a 401k or the like, I think) and the "homeownership rate" is about 64%. That latter number is somewhat misleading though, as it's the percentage of people who live in a house owned by an occupant as opposed the percentage of adults who own their own property.

So one can technically be middle class and have these things, but over 100 million Americans lack at least one of those.

Aaaaaand? At least half those people could have them if they wanted to. Irrational fear of investment is a hilariously common problem, but most people rent because, for whatever reason, they prefer it.

The more important measure of how things are going is how militant and riotous people are, and that rate appears to be cratering as the organised riots earlier this year cave in on themselves. Do you really think that, in the likely scenario of a Trump victory in November followed by another wave of californiavirus and isolation restrictions, more people are going to have more energy for angry revolution?

[Dostoevsky]

Aaaaaand? At least half those people could have them if they wanted to. Irrational fear of investment is a hilariously common problem, but most people rent because, for whatever reason, they prefer it.

Come on, we already know there are also lots of people who own a home who actually can't afford it and get evicted. That rate includes all the mortgages and whatnot, which run the gamut from 'I have the mortgage for the favorable tax treatment' to 'I can't really make the payments'.

A simple binary "invest or not" is a pretty meaningless metric anyways, seeing as a single share of a penny stock would count. (Heck, I recently saw adds for buying a slim fraction of a share of Apple for $5.) The more meaningful metric here should really be savings levels and/or net worth, which unfortunately isn't terribly great for Americans.

The more important measure of how things are going is how militant and riotous people are, and that rate appears to be cratering as the organised riots earlier this year cave in on themselves. Do you really think that, in the likely scenario of a Trump victory in November followed by another wave of californiavirus and isolation restrictions, more people are going to have more energy for angry revolution?

Er, don't you remember the first ~6 months of 2017? There was a lot of protest then. It did fizzle out, but was 'just' about Trump while now there's a lot of specific grievances folded on top of that.

[Maximum Spin]

Er, don't you remember the first ~6 months of 2017? There was a lot of protest then. It did fizzle out, but was 'just' about Trump while now there's a lot of specific grievances folded on top of that.

The thing is that that, and this, were about a tenth of a percent of the country's population.

The truth is that, apart from a tiny ignorable minority, nobody cares.

[Reelya]

And there's the subprime fiasco. "fear of investment" is bullshit. The Bush administration spent a lot of money getting underserved communities to sign up to home loans (american dream downpayment act), and what are home loans if not getting onto the investment bandwagon? If anything, crippling debt is a sign that people are too willing to get into investments rather than not willing enough.

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/108th-congress/house-report/164/1

Paradoxically, in order to build wealth through
homeownership, borrowers must first accumulate some amount of
wealth for a down payment. This contribution of borrower funds
is a significant factor in virtually every lending decision.
Until the mid-1990s, down payments on low-cost conventional
mortgages averaged around 20 percent of the loan balance. Many
families had to postpone homeownership for years while they
worked to accumulate such a sizeable downpayment. Under the
current mortgage finance environment, modern technology has
assisted financial underwriters with the ability to assess
credit risk, thereby decreasing the necessity for the types of
substantial downpayments required ten or twenty years ago.
However, most lenders continue to require some form of
downpayment or homeowner equity at purchase to increase the
likelihood that the borrower will not default. These
downpayments will provide that assurance and close that
homeownership opportunity gap.

So Bush decided the way to get more people with poor credit ratings and/or minorities into the loans game was to get rid of downpayments. We all know how well this whole thing went. Bush pressured the FNMA to lower underwriting standards, and when the shit hit the fan they all decided it was Clinton's fault.

[Dostoevsky]

The thing is that that, and this, were about a tenth of a percent of the country's population.

The truth is that, apart from a tiny ignorable minority, nobody cares.

It will be interesting to see what the actual percentages end up being, COVID restrictions or no. I've seen some claims it's a significant percent (maybe 5-10), though I'm honestly kind of dubious about that. Polling does seem to indicate it's not a "tiny ignorable minority" who cares, though.

The Vietnam protests only had a roughly 10-20% participation rate themselves at max.

[RedKing]

Roughly 52% of Americans have some form of investment (mostly a 401k or the like, I think) and the "homeownership rate" is about 64%. That latter number is somewhat misleading though, as it's the percentage of people who live in a house owned by an occupant as opposed the percentage of adults who own their own property.

So one can technically be middle class and have these things, but over 100 million Americans lack at least one of those.

Aaaaaand? At least half those people could have them if they wanted to. Irrational fear of investment is a hilariously common problem, but most people rent because, for whatever reason, they prefer it.

Oh, fuck you *and* the horse you rode in on. I don't "prefer" to rent, I rent because a divorce combined with some poor luck put me tens of thousands of dollars in debt and wrecked my credit rating. That said, after watching a number of homeowning friends get absolutely creamed during the 2008 housing collapse, I'm glad to have avoided that hot mess.

The more important measure of how things are going is how militant and riotous people are, and that rate appears to be cratering as the organised riots earlier this year cave in on themselves. Do you really think that, in the likely scenario of a Trump victory in November followed by another wave of californiavirus and isolation restrictions, more people are going to have more energy for angry revolution?

Yeah, we're all too lazy and low-energy to come burn down your house. We'd rather sit around and watch TikTok vid--oops, Trump's taking that away. Guess it's time to light 'er up!
See, the thing is, these protesters aren't GenX like me. Yeah, my generation talks a good game but generally fizzles out on the rage and activism because it's too much work. We merely adopted the rage. These young ones out here now? The millenials and GenZ's? They were born in it, molded by it.

GenX still thinks there's a slim chance that if they play the game right they'll get that comfy house and the stable 401(k) and medical insurance and all the other perks we were promised.
Millenials have heard those promises but largely never seen any of it and refuse to play the game.
GenZ just flipped the table and is demanding to know who set up this shitty game in the first place.

[Maximum Spin]

And there's the subprime fiasco. "fear of investment" is bullshit. The Bush administration spent a lot of money getting underserved communities to sign up to home loans (american dream downpayment act), and what are home loans if not getting onto the investment bandwagon? If anything, crippling debt is a sign that people are too willing to get into investments rather than not willing enough.

Well, the key point of that is that homes are not a good investment. Part of the whole point of that is that people, because of fear of investment, were looking for "safe investments" to pour tons of money (total) into, which they falsely believed homes to be. I agree that that's a problem.

Roughly 52% of Americans have some form of investment (mostly a 401k or the like, I think) and the "homeownership rate" is about 64%. That latter number is somewhat misleading though, as it's the percentage of people who live in a house owned by an occupant as opposed the percentage of adults who own their own property.

So one can technically be middle class and have these things, but over 100 million Americans lack at least one of those.

Aaaaaand? At least half those people could have them if they wanted to. Irrational fear of investment is a hilariously common problem, but most people rent because, for whatever reason, they prefer it.

Oh, fuck you *and* the horse you rode in on. I don't "prefer" to rent, I rent because a divorce combined with some poor luck put me tens of thousands of dollars in debt and wrecked my credit rating. That said, after watching a number of homeowning friends get absolutely creamed during the 2008 housing collapse, I'm glad to have avoided that hot mess.

Do you always assume that the phrase "most people" must necessarily be talking about you personally?

[Reelya]

Face it, nobody likes to rent. Not one. The only time you might not mind it is if you're renting privately from some nice old lady and she's charging you rent that's more appropriate for the 1980s that 2020. Anyone paying market realistic rent resents it.

[RedKing]

Do you always assume that the phrase "most people" must necessarily be talking about you personally?

Mathematically, yes.

The point is that there are myriad reasons why people don't have the money to invest and why they don't purchase homes, and the dismissive "well, they have only themselves to blame" pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps-once-you-can-afford-boots attitude pisses me off to no end. You have no idea what it's like to struggle, yet you feel entitled to make sweeping pronouncements about how it's their own fault.


EDIT: Also, you're talking out both sides of your ass. You went from "Irrational fear of investment is a hilariously common problem, but most people rent because, for whatever reason, they prefer it." to "Well, the key point of that is that homes are not a good investment." in the span of two posts.

[Reelya]

I guess he means the poor should be playing the stock markets to get ahead.

... despite a statistically insignificant proportion of people actually having made their wealth that way. very few people, statistically, are wealthy as a result of playing the markets, it's more that people with good-paying jobs stick their money in markets because that keeps up with inflation.